Registered: Oct 2012
Location: On my Flagship, Executor
Which Movie Jedi/Sith can Peak Suit Vader defeat?
Who from the Movies can Darth Vader (Peak Suit) defeat? Who would defeat him? I am not getting involved because I am genuinely curious as to who people think Vader is stronger than. Let the game begin!
__________________ I'll show you the TRUE power of the Dark Side!
-Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith
Indeed Vader became slower. But he adjusted his style to mitigate that weakness.
Specifically one-handed style allows to swing lightsaber around without doing a lot of body movements. So imho without his former speed he still can attack and defend as fast with Makashi. And because of his much greater strength he never lacks kinetic energy like other Makashi practitioners.
Yoda is too fast, so he will just tire him up.
RotS Anakin can counter his strength, so either he wins or tire him up like Yoda.
And Kenobi with his defensive style can defend until Vader gets exhausted
Well.. We we were kind of intentionally ignoring that. Because we just wanted to compare their powers and abilities. Well that's how I was looking at it anyway.
Well that is Vader's only real advantage over Dooku in Sabers. I'm sure Dooku is faster and more mobile.
And still I wouldn't underestimate Dooku's Force enhanced strength. He parried the combined might of Kenobi and Skywalker with one hand, and later kicked Skywalker pretty damn far slamming against the wall.
In real life you can master fencing in less than one year, if you drill it and compete everyday. Fencing is a simple art. Marek was drilling his combat skills for many years from childhood just like Maul. I doubt that Dooku would be better by any margin, unless he is naturally more tallented in fencing.
I don't think there is such thing as speed difference between characters.
Anakin was far more powerful than Dooku and Kenobi, yet, they still fought at equal speed. Sidious was more powerful than Maul, Opress and Windu, yet, he couldn't blitz them.
Superior power gives better anticipation and strength but the movement speed depends on natural body capabilities. Blaster bolts are much faster than any lightsaber attacks, yet, Luke could deflect bolts of teaching droid on his first session, it's all about anticipation, not speed.
Kenobi grappled with Jango Fett, yet, he did not demonstrate any superior speed.
Even Luke in state of Oneness couldn't blitz non-sensitive Slayers and was outskilling them instead.
Yoda is the fastest not because of superior power but his size. But at the same time his attacks are weak and have small reach, that's why he couldn't defeat Dooku.
Indeed, Vader is slow, he can't dodge attacks effectively as his body doesn't bend well and for the same reason he can't move around fast. However, his hands at shoulder level are made of flash, so he still can swing lightsaber as fast as prior to suit. He lacks mobility, not speed.
Because he can't dodge well, he has to block all attacks. However, his strength not only gives him offensive power, it, also, makes his defences much better. Superior strength allows to block and resist attacks effortlessly making it much harder to outskill him.
Yoda compensates his limitations with speed as he demonstrated against Dooku and Sidious. Similarly Vader compensates his limitations with strength as he demonstrated against Marek and his clone. It's unfair to praise one character with limitations and at the same time lowball another.
But it's clearly more complex than that in SW, otherwise Kenobi being "The Master" of Soresu wouldn't really mean much.
I put Dooku's skill above Marek's for being the best practitioner of his chosen form (a pure fencing form at that).
Whilst Marek isn't said to have completely mastered his chosen form anywhere. In fact he's only referred to being even A Master of Juyo in a future vision that never came to be.
So for that reason in terms of skill I would Kenobi, Dooku and Windu all above Marek.
As for Marek and Maul, perhaps Maul's training focused more on Saber skills and Marek's more on wielding incredible Force powers. Maul is also from a warrior born race so he may have been more talented in that regard.
Either way they had different teachers, different training regimes and both had different natural talents so it's hard to compare. But we can't just say they both trained hardcore for 10+ years so should both be just as skilled.
Still even in terms of strength I really don't see Vader giving Dooku more trouble than angry CW Anakin, who Dooku was fending off very nicely but was put down by a kick.
Also remember Old Ben was able to hold off (even match) Vader's strength, so again I have a hard time believing it's going to cause Dooku significantly more stress.
However I personally do see Dooku's mobility causing Vader trouble.
Last edited by DARTH POWER on Oct 24th, 2012 at 03:21 PM
Book doesn't really say about what he mastered or didn't. However, each of his performances shows that he analyses a lot during combat, recognizes styles of others and ALWAYS finds a way to outskill each of his opponents.
For example, here he demonstrates his mastery of Makashi:
"his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision".
Here it shows that he fights flawlessly: "Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.
The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits."
The way his combat is portrayed, I don't see any room for improvement at all.
"The Master" indeed doesn't mean much. Cin Dralic mastered all the Forms, yet, he didn't have the skill to apply them effectively during real combat. In book alone Marek trained combat a lot, fought other Force users and it says that he dueled Vader many times before. In fight with Vader he didn't display any signs of weakness, lack of skill or any mistakes that would allow Vader to take advantage. On opposite Marek constantly analized situation and surroundings, which shows that he is well trained and experienced combatant, as I said his performance is flawless.
True. I think we are on different wave. For me skill is mastery of techniques and how to utilize them effectively. The rest is determined as you said by natural talents.
Because of greater power Marek's saber prowess is above either Maul and Dooku. However, it still doesn't mean that he would outskill either of them. Anakin learned everything Kenobi knew, sparred with him 1000s hours and mastered his own style. Yet, both Kenobi and Dooku could keep up with him by fighting defensively.
Fights involve far more things than just saber skill. Surroundings, positional advantage, style specifics, offensive Force use, unarmed combat skills, stamina, various circumstances and state of mind.
Qui-Gon lost to Maul because he got tired and confined space prevented him from using main advantage of his style.
Dooku outskilled Kenobi because his superior power allowed him to win saber lock contest.
Kenobi could fight both Maul and Opress because Jarkai is the best option against multiple opponents and he is good at kicking.
Dooku defeated so many characters just by Force handling them.
Anakin defeated Dooku with grappling technique.
According to RotS novel Sidious had fear of falling out of window and redirected part of his power to root himself in place, which allowed Windu to win, in film Windu won by kick.
Kenobi defeated Anakin because of positional advantage.
Marek and Vader fought evenly, however, Marek won psychological battle, he affected Vader's performance with Dun Moch and on top of that got enraged, which allowed him to overpower Vader.
In nearly every case outcome depends on something other than saber skill, if both opponents are properly trained and experienced. So I hope you now see why I give so little weight to pure fencing skill as it is easy to master and is rarely a deciding factor.
0:40-0:46 and 1:25-1:27 seems like Vader overpowers Kenobi in saber lock. Interesting observation is that Kenobi is actually on offensive most of the fight, while Vader mostly parries and dodges attacks and only by the end starts driving Kenobi back but sill nowhere near as aggressively as in RotS. Seems like Vader is showing off how he improved without trying hard. But to be honest at that point SW lacked styles and combat evolved since. We can't really speculate on that.
Anakin didn't rely on mobility at all, his style lacked it. In CW and RotS Anakin didn't dodge a single attack and blocked everything instead. All he did is slowly walked towards Dooku, while all Dooku could do is move backwards and put entire effort into defence and dodging. Just wondering, if Dooku's better mobility didn't give him advantage against Anakin, how will it give against Vader?