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How much Batprep is too much?
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JakeTheBank
Return of the King

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How much Batprep is too much?

Batman is one of those characters in comics that under the right situation, can pull off almost anything. But when does it cross the line? Without resorting to bashing on the character, when does Batman's preptime go above and beyond what he is capable? Has it ever? Basically, I want to open up a line of dialog concerning Batman and his legendary "preptime" and how it should be handled in comics and how it has been mishandled.


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Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 08:20 AM
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bluewaterrider
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confused


I'm guessing people take a long time to respond in this forum?

Old Post Apr 16th, 2013 10:31 AM
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-Pr-
...

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Location: Ireland.

The fight with Darkseid in Return of Supergirl comes to mind.


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Old Post Apr 16th, 2013 11:27 AM
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bluewaterrider
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Wait a minute.

"Return of Supergirl"?

Are you talking about the following?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://oi54.tinypic.com/vo09eg.jpg
http://oi51.tinypic.com/30clkjl.jpg
http://oi54.tinypic.com/1zg7o1i.jpg
http://oi56.tinypic.com/2e4hp2f.jpg

Source: Superman/Batman #12
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Artist: Michael Turner
Date: September 2004
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Old Post Apr 16th, 2013 11:39 AM
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
The fight with Darkseid in Return of Supergirl comes to mind.


My thoughts exactly


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Old Post Apr 16th, 2013 12:11 PM
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-Pr-
...

Gender: Male
Location: Ireland.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Wait a minute.

"Return of Supergirl"?

Are you talking about the following?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://oi54.tinypic.com/vo09eg.jpg
http://oi51.tinypic.com/30clkjl.jpg
http://oi54.tinypic.com/1zg7o1i.jpg
http://oi56.tinypic.com/2e4hp2f.jpg

Source: Superman/Batman #12
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Artist: Michael Turner
Date: September 2004
----------------------------------------------------------------------


yep, that one.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggerman
My thoughts exactly


thumb up


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Old Post Apr 16th, 2013 12:39 PM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
The fight with Darkseid in Return of Supergirl comes to mind.



Thanks for confirming the episode.


---------------------------------------------



Alright.

I can see from the dates in this forum things can go a VERY long time without getting answered. Going back 3 pages in the "Versus" forum for instance, usually covers less than 4 days. Going back 3 pages in THIS forum actually covers nearly 4 YEARS. (Some of the entries, unbelievably, were last answered in 2009.)

So ... I'm going to hazard a guess here.

You think that the showing is above what "Batprep" should be able to accomplish because Batman seems to be enduring angry blows from a being who punches as hard, if not harder than, Superman.

Such blows should render a normal man to paste because THIS being, unlike Superman, is not holding back.

The stealing of an infantryman's armor should, ultimately, be about as effective as wearing a suit of eggshells.

Batman should be dead.



Is that your thinking here, and why you don't like the scene?

Old Post Apr 16th, 2013 01:10 PM
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-Pr-
...

Gender: Male
Location: Ireland.

Yeah, basically. Darkseid punching him like that should have killed him, armour or not.

Though I don't think he punches harder than Superman, even if that's a minor point.


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Old Post Apr 16th, 2013 10:53 PM
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JakeTheBank
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Necrobump ftw?

I always felt his prepping against Superman, while plausible occasionally veers into the territory of insulting Superman's intelligence as a character.


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Old Post Apr 17th, 2013 01:05 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
Yeah, basically. Darkseid punching him like that should have killed him, armour or not.

Though I don't think he punches harder than Superman, even if that's a minor point.




Couple things you're missing.

1) We don't know how hard Darkseid is actually punching Batman.
Contrary to popular belief, Darkseid IS capable of, and actually in the HABIT of, holding back his full, true, anihilating power in many confrontations. Nowhere does he have more reason to do so than here, where Batman's death would, de facto, mean the destruction of Darkseid's entire kingdom and planet.

2) The armor Batman is wearing is Apokoliptan, not Earth made.
We already have proof positive that some of those suits, even with seemingly unprotected heads, give remarkable protection to their wearer. Lex Luthor's "gundam" or warsuit is Apolkoliptan, for instance, and he's used it to meet both Superman and Supergirl on fairly even terms and gotten into very involved throwdowns with them.

3) It isn't that Apokoliptan armor being mentioned as the reason Batman survived. It's Barda's Mother Box.
And Mother Boxes have a history and reputation for doing PRECISELY what we presumably see happening in that encounter:


(from Wikipedia, Mother Box powers and abilities)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mother Boxes can access the energy of the Source for various effects; they can change the gravitational constant of an area, transfer energy from one place to another, sense danger, sense life, create force fields, rearrange molecular structure of matter, absorb or project powerful shock blast, create electro-webs, control the mental state of a host, communicate telepathically with a host or other life form, manipulate the life-force of a host to sustain it past fatal injuries, open and close boom tubes,[1] take over and control non-sentient machines, evolve non-sentient machines, merge sentient beings into a single more powerful being, sustain a life form in a hostile environment such as space, and do many other things. Mother Boxes have an affinity for the Source and are believed to draw their power from it. In that sense, they can be seen as a computer that links man to God.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


The Darkseid encounter in Superman/Batman #12 is not an instance of Batgod.

It's an instance of "god of the machine" ... named Mother Box.

Old Post Apr 17th, 2013 02:00 AM
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-Pr-
...

Gender: Male
Location: Ireland.

I had taken all of that in to account, tbh.

Can you prove that a forcefield was created?


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Old Post Apr 17th, 2013 02:10 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-


Can you prove that a forcefield was created?

Attachment: the detail most overlook. mother box protected batman from darkseid, not his armor.jpg
This has been downloaded 49 time(s).

Old Post Apr 17th, 2013 02:48 AM
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-Pr-
...

Gender: Male
Location: Ireland.

Ah, okay then. I'd forgotten about that.

Still, it does seem excessive that a man, even a man as insanely talented as Bruce, would be able to take hits like that from Darkseid.

It's not like Darkseid had any reason to hold back, either.


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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured... the first thought forbidden... the first freedom denied chains us all irrevocably."

Old Post Apr 17th, 2013 02:50 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-


It's not like Darkseid had any reason to hold back...





This is actually the genius of the scene.
Darkseid has EVERY reason to hold back from killing Bruce, though not reason to avoid trying to intimidate Bruce with the pain of a physical attack.

If Batman gives in, he loses his bargaining chip, the planet kingdom of Apokolips. On the other hand, if Batman is unable to disarm the bombs, the planet and everything on it is forfeit. Darkseid will have power over nothing but a dead asteroid field -- assuming he himself survives.

So Darkseid cannot kill Batman until the planet is safe from destruction.

But Batman won't back back down. He knows he can't.
His only option IS the nuclear option.
And Darkseid recognizes that fact.

On some level, Darkseid probably also recognizes that he IS being given respect: His word to release and then leave Kara alone is sufficient for people that would willingly lay down their lives fighting against him to simply proceed on their way.
He's just venting whatever frustration he can release on Bruce before he gives in.

Attachment: reason to hold back. apokolips is forfeit if batman dies.jpg
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Old Post Apr 17th, 2013 03:25 AM
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-Pr-
...

Gender: Male
Location: Ireland.

I honestly don't think Darkseid would have hesitated to kill Bruce, and then try to disarm them himself.


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Old Post Apr 17th, 2013 03:49 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
I honestly don't think Darkseid would have hesitated to kill Bruce, and then try to disarm them himself.



If Darkseid were merely ruled by passion and revenge, I would agree with you. He's not; he's usually most concerned with gaining and maintaining power. He wouldn't have much power if his palace, population, and planet disappeared in an eye blink.
Think he's going to risk all that for the sake of crushing some poor deluded fool in a Dracula outfit?

There would be other days.

And he knew it.

Attachment: aegis offer was genuine.jpg
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Old Post Apr 17th, 2013 05:04 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

Necrobump ftw?


erm

Am I the reason your thread didn't get a hit in its first 3 years?


Choose an ACTIVE forum next time.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

I always felt [Batman's] prepping against Superman, while plausible, occasionally veers into the territory of insulting Superman's intelligence as a character.


This statement is too open-ended.


Which encounters are you thinking of when you type this?

Dark Knight Returns? Red Son?
New Frontier? Hush? Teen Titans?

Frankly, beyond carrying a piece of kryptonite in his pouch, I don't see where Batman normally takes NEARLY the precautions that he should against Clark or people like him.

The bulk of his truly thought-out engagements seem to occur in non-mainstream books.

Old Post Apr 17th, 2013 10:27 AM
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-Pr-
...

Gender: Male
Location: Ireland.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If Darkseid were merely ruled by passion and revenge, I would agree with you. He's not; he's usually most concerned with gaining and maintaining power. He wouldn't have much power if his palace, population, and planet disappeared in an eye blink.
Think he's going to risk all that for the sake of crushing some poor deluded fool in a Dracula outfit?

There would be other days.

And he knew it.


I have read a little about Darkseid, you know. stick out tongue


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Old Post Apr 17th, 2013 10:48 AM
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Thanks for confirming the episode.


---------------------------------------------



Alright.

I can see from the dates in this forum things can go a VERY long time without getting answered. Going back 3 pages in the "Versus" forum for instance, usually covers less than 4 days. Going back 3 pages in THIS forum actually covers nearly 4 YEARS. (Some of the entries, unbelievably, were last answered in 2009.)

So ... I'm going to hazard a guess here.

You think that the showing is above what "Batprep" should be able to accomplish because Batman seems to be enduring angry blows from a being who punches as hard, if not harder than, Superman.

Such blows should render a normal man to paste because THIS being, unlike Superman, is not holding back.

The stealing of an infantryman's armor should, ultimately, be about as effective as wearing a suit of eggshells.

Batman should be dead.



Is that your thinking here, and why you don't like the scene?


I was actually fine with him taking a beating from Darkseid since, as Blue points out, he knew Batman was needed to disarm the weapons.

The issue i had with this was the fact that Batman just got to the planet and in about 37 seconds cracked Darkseid's security codes and reprogramed them regardless of the fact that it was alien tech, possibly some of the best in the universe, and i was just accepted that this was well within his ability.

Yet his own systems get hacked, he gets outsmarted regularly enough by his villians, and Superman comments on how he could improve Batman's shit but doesn't cuz his Bat-feeling would get hurt.

HOGWASH I SAY!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This statement is too open-ended.


Which encounters are you thinking of when you type this?

Dark Knight Returns? Red Son?
New Frontier? Hush? Teen Titans?

Frankly, beyond carrying a piece of kryptonite in his pouch, I don't see where Batman normally takes NEARLY the precautions that he should against Clark or people like him.

The bulk of his truly thought-out engagements seem to occur in non-mainstream books.


Dark Knight Returns is a good example. He shows up to "talk" to Bruce and Batman is standing there in armor shooting rockets at him. At that point STOP F*CKING TALKING AND FIGHT! You know damn well he will not go willingly so why the hell are you trying to talk him into it? They really had to make Clark forget everything he's ever said/known about Bruce to actually net a win for the Bat


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Last edited by juggerman on Apr 17th, 2013 at 12:49 PM

Old Post Apr 17th, 2013 12:40 PM
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JakeTheBank
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
erm

Am I the reason your thread didn't get a hit in its first 3 years?


Choose an ACTIVE forum next time.






This statement is too open-ended.


Which encounters are you thinking of when you type this?

Dark Knight Returns? Red Son?
New Frontier? Hush? Teen Titans?

Frankly, beyond carrying a piece of kryptonite in his pouch, I don't see where Batman normally takes NEARLY the precautions that he should against Clark or people like him.

The bulk of his truly thought-out engagements seem to occur in non-mainstream books.


Lol, what? My comment was more in shock that anyone replied to a three year old thread that I even forgot about making, not you specifically replying to it. And I'll make posts in whatever forum I feel like, thanks.

Batman in general when he's paired up against Superman often has the benefit of one sided prep, weakness exploitation of some type, while Superman himself is nerfed. When Batman uses his Kryptonite, Superman winds up being sent for a loop...yet in Superman's own issues, the guy can endure and tank a ridiculous amount of Kryptonite before falling. Writers in general seem to forget that Superman knows Batman just as well as Batman knows Superman.


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Old Post Apr 17th, 2013 05:59 PM
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