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The Official Improve KOTOR 2 thread
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The_Tempest
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Registered: Sep 2012
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The Official Improve KOTOR 2 thread

Lots of threads and discussions have been had about improving the PT, OT, and EU at large.

KotOR II was a gloriously missed opportunity in the span of the EU. Any thoughts as to its improvement?

Old Post Aug 20th, 2013 08:42 PM
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Based
iPinoy

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Story wise the game was pretty good. I enjoyed the deviation from the typical heroes tale which is the same in every BioWare game. The overall story was fine but there are annoying tidbits. Nerfing force drain for one. An expansion on force wounds too. I found it annoying that of all the gogoles of people in the SW universe that a force wound happened to live at the same time another once in a google epic force eater. And they have to give Exile her due. She's basically erased form SW history which makes no sense considering the Disciple started the order really.

Old Post Aug 20th, 2013 08:48 PM
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ares834
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Drop the entire force wound concept. It's an awful idea.

Old Post Aug 20th, 2013 10:14 PM
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Nephthys
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Storywise the game is perfect. Just fill in the unfinished content and add in the planet they had to get rid of.

The Force Wound concept was great. The Force is tied to all living things. Its makes sense and its pretty powerful that mass death can affect it so much.


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Old Post Aug 20th, 2013 10:17 PM
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ares834
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And create a hole that starts sucking shit up? Nah, don't buy it. Maybe in a specific location it makes sense but making people into wounds was rather ridiculous.

Old Post Aug 20th, 2013 10:24 PM
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The_Tempest
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Drop the entire force wound concept. It's an awful idea.
'

thumb up

quote:
N.
Storywise the game is perfect. Just fill in the unfinished content and add in the planet they had to get rid of.


There's no such thing as a perfect story.

quote:
N.
The Force Wound concept was great. The Force is tied to all living things. Its makes sense and its pretty powerful that mass death can affect it so much.


thumb down

I might be able to buy this if Force wounds didn't use the Force. It's like an amputee with all of his limbs. Doesn't make much sense at all.

quote:
ares834
And create a hole that starts sucking shit up? Nah, don't buy it. Maybe in a specific location it makes sense but making people into wounds was rather ridiculous.


thumb up

Trying to think of a way to justify Nihilus's existence, but I'm thinking he should be done away with entirely. Force draining people is just dumb.

Kreia should be less Obviously Evil and G0-T0 should have been the Big Bad, hunting down Jedi and Sith. It would have subverted the typical Sith-Are-Big-Bad trope and G0-T0 has a unique and compelling interest to do so.

Old Post Aug 20th, 2013 10:49 PM
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Nephthys
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Its perfect in that I can't think of a way to improve it.

Force drain existed way before Nihilus.

G0-T0 being the big bad is dumb. He's trying to hunt the Jedi down to get you to save the Republic. His story is fine as it is, figuring out that he's really the lost Telos droid controller from way back at the start of the game is a great moment.


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Last edited by Nephthys on Aug 20th, 2013 at 10:59 PM

Old Post Aug 20th, 2013 10:55 PM
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The_Tempest
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Its perfect in that I can't think of a way to improve it.


Watch and learn.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Force drain existed way before Nihilus.


And it was dumb then, too. The difference is that Force Vacuum Cleaner is the sum and total of his entire existence rather than merely an aspect of it.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
G0-T0 being the big bad is dumb. He's trying to hunt the Jedi down to get you to save the Republic. His story is fine as it is, figuring out that he's really the lost Telos droid controller from way back at the start of the game is a great moment.


G0-T0 being the Big Bad is great. Not only is it a departure from a woefully overused trope of making the Sith be the Big Bad, it is also a very unique circumstance and motivation.

If Nihilus absolutely must exist, perhaps he and G0-T0 are in cahoots. The latter rounding up the galaxy's Jedi and Sith and feeding them to the former as a means of wiping them out.

And then Kreia's nihilistic crusade against the Force could factor into this somehow. Perhaps, ironically, with her being fed to him?

Old Post Aug 20th, 2013 11:07 PM
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Lord Lucien
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My second favourite of all things Star Wars to b*tch about!


quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
And create a hole that starts sucking shit up? Nah, don't buy it. Maybe in a specific location it makes sense but making people into wounds was rather ridiculous.
I'm a fan of the 'subtle' Force. The understated kind of Force. I was on board with the idea of a "wound", so to speak, as it seemed like something that was strictly mental/incorporeal. A non-physical aspect of the Force that subtly affected the minds and lives of those around it. That idea was great. I just think they took it too far with Nihilus, and everyone being enamored and in awe over Ms. Wound.


1.) So scale back the scope and rhetoric of the wound feature, and scale back the in-game salivating and masturbating over the Exile as a character. She came off as too damned important and integral in the life and times of absolutely everyone. If ever the godawful idea of Space Jesus Anakin was recreated in Star Wars, it was with the Exile.


2.) Scale back the sheer amount of items in-game. With a game that focuses much on story and characters, I hated being bogged down with endless items that you have to recalibrate every 20 minutes. Too much money as well--makes things too easy in any game. Seems like a small problem, but for me its part of what ruined the entertainment value of the game.


3.) Get rid of Nihilus and Sion. Or at least recreate them as more believable, less over the top villains. Again with the subtlety/underplayed Force. Holding together a dead zombie body, and being whatever the f*ck Nihilus was, is a tad excessive. Also give them some manner of origin story. Malak was a Jedi who fell to the Dark Side--simple. Nihilus and Sion were... who the hell knows. C'mon!


4.) In keeping with reducing the galaxy-wide wanking over the Exile, scale back the same attitude in the secondary PCs. I really think they could have been a more interesting and deeper lot than the first game's, but their endless fawning, arguing, and pontificating over this one freaking character kinda made them seem like props meant to stroke the player's ego as they constantly talked about how important and incredible the Exile was. The first game gave the 2PCs a variety of reasons for accompanying Revan--and they weren't all about Revan. Again, like the problem of making Anakin/Vader too integral and centered in the execution of the prequels, the Exile was far too of the same in KotOR II.


5.) On a similar vein, scale back the exaggerated personalities in the characters. Visas is too dark and mysterious. Kreia's too overtly manipulative and mysterious. Atton's too selfish and mysterious. G0-T0 is too calculating and mysterious. Bao-Dur is too quiet and mysterious. Brianna is too nothing and mysterious. Mira's too tough and mysterious. There's a bit of a trend. I'm not saying mystery is a bad thing, but inundating every character with it (both in their speaking patterns, choice of words, and tone of voice) can get extremely annoying. Especially when the game openly prompts you to work at extracting the information that these diehard loyal followers of Space Jesus 2.0 are keeping from you. It really turned me off talking to them, and that's never a good thing.


6.) I don't like Wookiees outside the OT, so get rid of Hanharr.


7.) Add some levity to the overall tone. It's needlessly dark the whole way through. The music, the characters, the subject matter, the settings. It's all pretty dim and there's no need. I get that many game have a style and tone they want to set, but in a game that's many dozens of hours long, how about some variety? It's freaking Star Wars, not the Matrix. Lighten up some.


EDIT: 8.) And make G0-T0 the Big Bad. That's actually a great idea. A non-conventional enemy really shakes up the standard in Star Wars. It's not some Dark Jedi or Sith Lord trying to take over the galaxy.


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Last edited by Lord Lucien on Aug 20th, 2013 at 11:17 PM

Old Post Aug 20th, 2013 11:11 PM
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The_Tempest
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Aaand make G0-T0 the Big Bad. And you've said it in a nutshell.

Old Post Aug 20th, 2013 11:13 PM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
2.) Scale back the sheer amount of items in-game. With a game that focuses much on story and characters, I hated being bogged down with endless items that you have to recalibrate every 20 minutes. Too much money as well--makes things too easy in any game. Seems like a small problem, but for me its part of what ruined the entertainment value of the game.


Now this I actually kind of agree with. The game was too damn easy, I shit-stomped everything. They really needed to tweet the gameplay to create actual challenge and tension in the combat. Nihilus should be an absolute monster capable to skull****ing you if you screw up. He should not be beatable in seconds. Malak was a nailbiting boss because he hit hard, its hard to take him down or even affect him with Force powers, you fight him alone and he regenerates. Take lessons.

That said I liked that there was a lot of sweet l00t in the game and I liked the upgrade system. It just needed to be more balanced. I'm sure this was just a factor of time.


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Old Post Aug 20th, 2013 11:17 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Now this I actually kind of agree with. The game was too damn easy, I shit-stomped everything. They really needed to tweet the gameplay to create actual challenge and tension in the combat. Nihilus should be an absolute monster capable to skull****ing you if you screw up. He should not be beatable in seconds. Malak was a nailbiting boss because he hit hard, its hard to take him down and affect him with Force powers, you fight him alone and he regenerates. Take lessons.

That said I liked that there was a lot of sweet l00t in the game and I liked the upgrade system. It just needed to be more balanced. I'm sure this was just a factor of time.
I actually had to restart an entire game of KotOR I recently because I didn't have enough combat feats and health packs to beat Malak on easy. Art from adversity, challenge from scarcity.

The hardest fight in KotOR II is if you forget to give Atton any good weapons and armor when he has to surprise-fight those twins. The main villains aren't difficult at all.


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Old Post Aug 20th, 2013 11:20 PM
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ares834
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Yeah, difficulty was whack in that game. When the first boss (in a DS play-through) is harder than the entire end game you know you ****ed up.

Old Post Aug 20th, 2013 11:24 PM
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Nephthys
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That said, G0-T0 sounds cool in 'so original and non-conventional!' (I'm saying this in a really pretentious way just so you know) way but you couldn't do it well in my opinion. He doesn't fit in with the core themes of the game like the Triumvirate does and, like, how would you even fight him at the end? I just don't think that route makes for a satisfying and thematic ending. He's just a robot, who gives a shit?

Also Hanharr is ****ing awesome you blasphemous scum. He's the best Wookiee in the mythos by far.


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Old Post Aug 20th, 2013 11:30 PM
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The_Tempest
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
That said, G0-T0 sounds cool in 'so original and non-conventional!' (I'm saying this in a really pretentious way just so you know)


Original and non-conventional alone would be irrelevant. The fact that he has the believable means and motivation to suitably function as a Big Bad is what seals the deal.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
way but you couldn't do it well in my opinion. He doesn't fit in with the core themes of the game like the Triumvirate does and, like, how would you even fight him at the end? I just don't think that route makes for a satisfying and thematic ending. He's just a robot, who gives a shit?


People give lots of shits about R2D2, I-5YQ, and HK-47 so feel free to STFU at this time.

Who says you have to fight him? Or fight him?

Old Post Aug 20th, 2013 11:40 PM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Original and non-conventional alone would be irrelevant. The fact that he has the believable means and motivation to suitably function as a Big Bad is what seals the deal.



People give lots of shits about R2D2, I-5YQ, and HK-47 so feel free to STFU at this time.

Who says you have to fight him? Or fight him?


So do the Triumvirate. And you're ignoring that fact that removing Traya and G0-T0 from the party (or having Traya just pretend to be good) greatly diminishes how interesting they are and the players ability to access their characters. I'm sure the only reason you think he'd be a good villain is because of the impact he had on you during your conversations with him, outside of which he's a generic gangster, which you wouldn't be able to have with him as the villain. Furthermore Kreia would be a far less interesting and developed character without the ability to frankly explore her philosophy and character.

Not as primary antagonists. A Jedi shouldn't have a floating beachball as a big baddy.

In a video game, its expected to have a final confrontation with the Big Bad. And for a reason, if you don't then defeating them looses its sense of satisfaction. You only need to look at ME3 to see that. And even if you'd have had to fight a boss, if it isn't actually the Big Bad then who gives a shit?

Basically your ideas don't work because if you implemented them it'd be a completely different game, not Kotor II: The Sith Lords. Remember the sub-title? Its there for a reason.


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Old Post Aug 20th, 2013 11:57 PM
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The_Tempest
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
So do the Triumvirate. And you're ignoring that fact that removing Traya and G0-T0 from the party (or having Traya just pretend to be good) greatly diminishes how interesting they are and the players ability to access their characters. I'm sure the only reason you think he'd be a good villain is because of the impact he had on you during your conversations with him, outside of which he's a generic gangster, which you wouldn't be able to have with him as the villain. Furthermore Kreia would be a far less interesting and developed character without the ability to frankly explore her philosophy and character.


None of the triumvirate have anything on G0-T0, who is far and away the best character to come out of the game perhaps barring Hanharr.

What endeared me to G0-T0 was that he was a cynical, manipulative droid who was doing what he was doing to preserve the Republic. It was less a moral judgment than the solution of a mathematical equation wherein the Jedi and Sith were troublesome variables.

Loved it. And no one said he had to be out of the party. Kreia wasn't out of the party, and she was the Big Bad.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Not as primary antagonists. A Jedi shouldn't have a floating beachball as a big baddy.


This is a very compelling reason for G0-T0 to not be the Big Bad, thanks for sharing it!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
In a video game, its expected to have a final confrontation with the Big Bad. And for a reason, if you don't then defeating them looses its sense of satisfaction. You only need to look at ME3 to see that. And even if you'd have had to fight a boss, if it isn't actually the Big Bad then who gives a shit?


A final confrontation need not be a classic fist-fight and I do believe the heart of ME3's controversial ending was more along it's Fable-esque 3-way choice randomly presented to the hero, not the lack of a duel between Shepard and the Illusive Man or Harbinger.

Old Post Aug 21st, 2013 12:02 AM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also Hanharr is ****ing awesome you blasphemous scum. He's the best Wookiee in the mythos by far.
I'd put OT Chewbacca (and Chuundar, now that I think about it) above him, but I otherwise agree; Hanharr is the best Wookiee in the mythos.

That is how much Wookiees suck.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
That said, G0-T0 sounds cool in 'so original and non-conventional!' (I'm saying this in a really pretentious way just so you know) way but you couldn't do it well in my opinion. He doesn't fit in with the core themes of the game like the Triumvirate does and, like, how would you even fight him at the end? I just don't think that route makes for a satisfying and thematic ending. He's just a robot, who gives a shit?
I always got the impression that KotOR II was supposed to be that unconventional Star Wars game. Like it really wanted to do something new in a manner that hadn't been done before. I think it fell flat in that regard, but if it had been realized then having a single droid as the brains behind the entire story would have been very interesting indeed.

The character is pretty cool. He has a threatening, charismatic voice, and a unique perspective on things that keep you listening--all while not having a face. So developing him in to the prime mover behind events--the droid version of Palpatine, if you will--all for the sake of achieving what he believes to be the salvation and peace of the galaxy, is a pretty unique and creative idea. Hear me out:



He could be plotting the death of every Force group, because he feels they're responsible for all the wars and disorder. The bounties and Jedi-Sith shadow war is sparked by him, as a means of wiping out both sides forever. And if you absolutely must have Nihilus in the game, make him an unwitting pawn (or willing tool, because what does he care really?) of G0-T0. G0-T0's finding Jedi though his Exchange and Republic networks, and leading Nihilus right to them. He'll kill all the Force users, and die himself once there's no more to consume, freeing the galaxy once and for all of their destructive influence.

The "boss" would be Nihilus, but G0-T0's puppetry would be revealed after you defeat him. And if ever there was a Big Bad that'd be appropriate to defeat by talking them down, it's a highly logical robot. Maybe he could be talked in to surrender by explaining to his robot brain that the Force doesn't die just because the Force users die, that someone else will one day rediscover how to use the Force and the cycle will begin all over again--the only way to achieve his goals would be to kill everyone in the galaxy that he's trying to save. You know, something creative and new that makes sense, instead of what we got which was ridiculous and a cop-out.


Like what should have been with the prequels, make the main character a smaller part of a larger story, instead of the central point that everyone revolves around. Revan was important, but he wasn't "the key" or " the Chosen One". The march forward of the story doesn't rest solely on his presence. Having a character start off in humble origins and rise to power and affluence is a much more engaging and satisfying story than one who is told right from the beginning that they're hot shit and everyone wants them. That "G0-T0 is the Big Bad" scenario above could've had that. It also would have given the 2PCs further motivation for joining the Exile; save themselves (as Jedi OR Sith--because I believe this should have been the game where you definitively pick a side), and save the galaxy. Not just following some chick around because they're inexplicably "drawn to her".


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2013 12:06 AM
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The_Tempest
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^^^

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Old Post Aug 21st, 2013 12:08 AM
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Tzeentch
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Hm. Can't say KOTOR1 was all that hard, to be fair. I've only played the game one time- it was on hard -and by the time I got to Malak my single-blade guardian ****ed his shit up with master force speed and some other ability that I can't recall atm (I think it was that one that shuts off the target's force abilities for awhile?).

Before I got fed up with KOTOR2's bullshit and stopped playing, I was effortlessly solo'ing everything with lightning as well, as the Consular.

idk what was with those games, but neither of them had any sort of difficulty.

edit- Thinking about it, the part of KOTOR2 where I had to play as an NPC party while the Exile was on some other planet was pretty ****ing hard. Using Bao-Dur, Atton and Brianna to fight those sith masters was a nightmare.


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Last edited by Tzeentch on Aug 21st, 2013 at 12:11 AM

Old Post Aug 21st, 2013 12:08 AM
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