Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
Marvel Universe: THE END Discussion Thread
well, this series has stirred up a lot of controversy among the 'cosmic elite'. heheh. aka -- those guys who debate the cosmic stuff all the time!! anyhow, i just wanted to get some ideas down and shared, and i would welcome others to do the same.
***IF YOU PLAN ON ACTING LIKE AN ASS TOWARD ME OR ANY OTHER PARTICIPANT IN THIS THREAD I WILL REPORT YOU AS SUCH. FIRST AND ONLY WARNING!***
so, let's start off by answering an oft-asked question:
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
now, there are basically 2 prevailing thoughts as regards THE END.
***SPOILERS***
1. first theory states that near the conclusion of the series, thanos destroyed/absorbed/ENDED the entire MULTIVERSE.
2. second theory states that near the conclusion, thanos destroyed the 616 UNIVERSE.
both i think have some merit. personally, i subscribe to #2. the reason i do is pretty simple: i believe when eternity and infinity and living tribunal are "absorbed into" thanos near the end, that these were merely representations of these concepts, and not the concepts themselves. that is to say: i think they were m-bodies that were absorbed. as a result, after the m-bodies were absorbed, the universe (spatially and temporally) still existed because the m-bodies were merely representations/manifestations of these concepts and NOT the entirety of said concepts.
as a result, thanos needed to CONTINUE to absorb the universe around him to absorb the TRUE essence of both infinity and eternity. i see no way he could have absorbed the true essence of the living tribunal, who is believed to have an m-body in existence in every universe.
i also believe this explains why thanos was still afraid others might rise against him even AFTER he absorbed the m-bodies. eternity and infinity could create OTHER m-bodies, lt could send another m-body, and the high ranking magical entities/demons (many enormously powerful) would still have remained in existence to "threaten him".
some of you may be thinking: m-bodies?? what the hell are m-bodies?? in the next couple posts i'll show you.
This is what Andy Schmidt who is an editor from Marvel and currently working on Annihilation had to say about Marvel: The End.
"Someone else answered this later, but just so you get it from me as well: MARVEL UNIVERSE: THE END is an out of continuity story, however, Thanos does refer to some "event" that seemingly bore a similar resemblence to the THE END story that occured some time in between INFINITY ABYSS and THANOS #1."
Also in Akhenaten's profile in OHOTMU A-Z #1 in 2006 it says that he is from the Earth-4321 reality. And it also states "At least some of Earth-4321's events may have occurred in the Earth-616 reality, but the extent of this duplication remains unrevealed." http://img189.imageshack.us/my.php?...khenatenxl9.jpg
All the other "The End" books were not canon and more of a what if. But the event that happened in Marvel: The End were hinted to in Thanos solo comic and also in the profile for Thanos in Annihilation.
m-bodies are physical manifestations of abstract entities. they are NOT the entities themselves. in this issue of quasar (#37) quasar is searching for the REAL eternity. he finds only m-bodies. and he finds them in some . . . odd places . . .
but a'll get back to that. here's some more info on m-bodies:
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
here we have quasar coming upon his first eternity m-body in the dimension of manifestations. apparently the SAME realm where lt, warlock and the cosmics all met to discuss the fate of the infinity gauntlet . . .
again, warlock is searching for the TRUE eternity. that m-body is NOT the true eternity. after all, how COULD it be the 'entirety' of eternity when simultaneous m-bodies exist? beyond that, m-bodies exist simultaneously of infinity as well. even if someone COULD absorb or wipe out eternity, they only get HALF of everything. infinity represents the other half.
so, if they WERE m-bodies thanos wiped out, it makes sense he would fear reprisal from other m-bodies or other high powered beings who might rise against him. to eliminate the threat he absorbed the entire universe. no need to say the multiverse was absorbed, and the little blue globes could still be universes within a multiverse contained in an even larger omniverse and atleza is just the 616 anchor, as opposed to a multiversal anchor which to my knowledge has never been stated in a comic.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
there are also the numerous times universe is mentioned in the series that help support the notion. and these are characters (and a writer) ACUTELY aware of the difference between a universe and a multiverse. for THEM to use the terms interchangeably seems . . . strange . . .
oh, and one scan i forgot: here are MORE m-bodies of death:
Interresting thread. But Thanos is really one of the more wanked out character in Marvel. Each thanos story exist only with the purpose to offer more power to thanos. And The End is the worst of all : Worst writing, worst idea. Only Akhenaten is good in this story (and i mean : I really LIKE this character), but he was created only for be the ***** of Thanos. Hey, Thanos writer, GET A GIRLFRIEND and stop to masturbate !
And as i have already said (say ?), each author probably has his own idea of the organization of the Marvel Universe.
As a lot of other guys, i build my own Universe, and I try to include all the possible universes there. The Marvel Universe is one of the hardest. Not because of the time travels : The universes which accept the voyage in time obey in general the theory of the Big-bang, and because that are not infinite. Time travels are "easy" to explain in no infinite universes.
What poses problem with the MU are on the one hand the successive retcon (too much is too much), and on the other hand that the various authors do not look much of what the others write.
In this case, none of us can have "the" answer. Even if the editor of Marvel gives us "his" version ", we can be certain that a writer will contradict it little after...
My Idea of the question.
First, there is my Universe, the real, the true : The Mosaïque (the mosaic).
The Mosaïque is the True Universe. She's totaly infinite, illimited, in space, energy, time (no time traval : Time is just an abstract thing). No beginning, no end, no "ultimate beïng". The Mosaïque has no purpose, no master, no God : She is because she is.
The Mosaïque is made up of an infinite number of Dimension (with cap D). Each Dimension, or "stone of the mosaic" has an infinite number of foreign Dimensions, But no-foreign Dimensions are in a number still infinitely higher.
A Dimension is also infinite and without limit. No end, no beginning.
A dimension is made of four things : Space, time (abstract), ether (field force. Organized, ether is calld matter) and movement (all energy is in fact movement. Even chaos is nothing more movement).
The Marvel Universe is ONE dimension. The DC Universe is another.
Yes, I think of having solved the problem of the "Brothers" and JLA vs Avengers. It is not a problem.
Some Dimensions have others dimensions (with no-cap D) in them, the majority (has our) not. I call the "littles" dimensions "sous-univers" (I don't know the english word. "Under universe" ?).
Under-universes can be false infinites, because sharing the infinite space and energy/ether is always infinity, sorta.
The biggest under-universes in MU are Omniverses. we can see one in Thanos The End.
In the "616 omniverse" (the omniverse where 616 Earth is, nothing more), a being, the Living Tribunal, is in charge.
The LT is presented at us like a judge charged to prevent Multivers from unbalancing its neighbors and thus to hustle the omniverse internal organization. But we do not know really what it is. Perhaps the LT is it makes the sovereign of this omnivers. Perhaps he hides from something and too much noise in Multiverses would be likely to make it located. Perhaps is a kind of super-scientist and us his personal colony of ants...
In Omniverse are Multiverses. Each Multiverse share a share (!) or the Omniverse energy and space. It's probably infinite, but it's unlikely : Multiverse have centers (at leat one). And you can't have a center if you are without limits (because then all your places are equally "centers").
In, each Multiverse.
In each Multiverse, it seem (only seem) a being or a group of beings are in charge : Eternity, or Eternity/Infinity Death/Oblivion.
I don't think the "oblivion" seen is The End is really the abstract Oblivion.
In Multiverses are Universes (not "the" Universe).
Each Multiverse, or at least our 616 Multiverse (again, the Multiverse where our 616 Earth is) has a "dimension of manifestations". Probably a pocket universe.
In this "dimension of manifestations", a artefact/being build proxies/avatars/bodies for abstracts.
It seem (as see in pre-retcon Beyonder series) abstract exist only becauses they are ideas of the livings. Probably, not the sames abstracts exist in all the Multiverses, or at least all the omniverses.
Maybe it's THAT the LT want to prevent or enforce (we can't say). But we can also imagine abstract are unnaturals, and are just a conjuration for dominate the livings with the help of Antromorpho.
In each Universe, an M-Body of generally each abstract exist and is in charge. An M-boby is autonomous (as seen in Korvac serie), but not independant.
Around universes, as islands around continents, there are pocket-universes, as the Mephisto or Dormamu's realms.
A pocket universe can be linked directly with few universes and other pocket-universes. When a pocket-universe is linked with more than one universe, these are often similars universes.
Now...
One problem with thanos-the end is the "out of the multiverse death realm".
It's totally **** my brain. and all contradicts that I have read at Marvel for... 25 years.
Two ideas :
One :
It is not because a character says a thing which this thing is true: He can be mistaken - partly or even in all - or lie.
If xe knows that an "excuse" to explain that the "all-powerful Thanos" always loses the supreme power - Starlin need to accept that "his dear Thanos" can be beaten or make errors... - is that it does not feel worthy of the great successes and causes his failure unconsciously.
If we adds to it that it always had love for Death (we can see in Annihilation he do not stop to love her), we can easily imagine that he does not have in fact absorb this one.
Two :
Death realm is in a pocket-multiverse. Shinny, no ? No ? Not even a little ? Err...
Now, what is this ****ing HOTU.
We now, first, we don't know his real name.
Thanos call hit heart of the universe, but we already know "universe" is a very generic name.
Others call hit, i think, heart of the infinite. But infinite is also a generic name. Universes is marvel are not infinites, because they all begin by a big bang. You can't be infinite with a beginning without infinite speed, and we know it's not the case (the crunch is a limit, surfer go to the other half of the universe once, etc.).
But multiverse or even omniverse do.
For multiverse, i don't know : Multiverse has centers (at least two : One with chaos/order, an other is the Time dimension - a FF story).
I think really Starlin need to stop to wank Tahnos in bad stories.
In The End, the drunk author say, more or less, the Infinity Gem are devices, and the HOTU is the Energy.
One idea.
My favorite is : Infinity Gems are the real thing, and the HOTU is the "link" between them, the "chain" of a "infinite pendant"
Thanos, you know that, is better with energy manipulation. he THINK the HOTU is more powerfull because Energy is more his "thing".
But we can't say Thanos really know how to use powerfull devices or power : He just WANT them (or, more exactly, he want the power of others. We see in Annihilation he mistakes the cosmic power "because there is more powerful powers" (yes, I think that its attitude at this time is really contempt).
You want a proof ?
First, for somebody supposed to have all the capacities or the Multiverse (of even one universe), its intelligence obviously did not increase (even with powers which he's supposes higher than those of the gems of the Soul and the Spirit, its intellect and its will do not have undergoes any improvement).
In the same way, whereas he is supposed to be "one" with the universe, he need to seek the things, and does not even realize that it misses there certain beings which he however knows very well (I think in particular of Warlock and Death).
We see when he try to repear the bases of the Universe : He know only "energy beam" as tool.
He's only answer ? Rewrite the universe. He don't even think to use his powers over time for, i don't know... stop the situation who begin the "multiversal desease" ?
No, Thanos want the power, but he's not the man who can really say what the thing is.
Oh... and the most powerful thing of the multiverse left without monitoring, nor even a locked door, so that no matter who can reach it whereas it is enough to plunge inside to seize ALL... Most powerfull thing in the universe, really ?
Now, HOTU is Universal or Multiversal.
Well, we know Infinity Gems are Multiversal. And i think they are really more powerfull than even a Multiversal Eternity. Mortals just don't have the intellect to use them properly, that's all (Thanos and Warlock are too much confidents in they own capabilities, as we see in the comics).
It's even possible than Infinity Gem are Multiversals : They are originally God, and the death of this God created the universe. But i don't know if only universes are created by big-bang, of if this is the case also for the multiverses. Any idea, someone ?
But the HOTU ?
Well, i don't see why he can't be Multiversal, even if thanos only absorbed M-bodies who oppose him in a first time : Real LT exist always in the others Multiverses of the Omniverse, but can't enter in our anymore (Thanos aborbed all the things he need for that : Matter, energy, Antropomorpho, etc.), and multi-Eternity is destroyed when Thanos absorb the multiverse.
__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
and where did you get that little tidbit of info . . .?
and x: you may be right. basically i think only thanos REMEMBERS the events of the END though. so to other characters it's as though the events never happened. but again, unless someone has definitive proof to show it's non-canon, it IS canon. there were editors' comments floating around, but i'm pretty sure if you looked at the date of the comments, the thanos issue came out AFTER said comments were made.
I was basically under the assumption that The End books weren't canon in general, and were simply imaginings by writers of how things could end for all their respective characters.
I think basically Marvel never intended the End to be in continuity, then Starlin wanted it to be the basis for his Thanos series so they had to come up with some lazy excuses. I think of it as in-continuity, just because it was referenced in a canon 616 story and its not like it changed anything, everything was reset and Thanos (and maybe Warlock) was pretty much the only character affected, so its no big deal.
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Last edited by Wally West on Nov 30th, 2006 at 02:25 PM
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Nov 30th, 2006 01:36 AM
