Future Trunks in DBS was SSJ2 when he destroyed Dabura in his timeline, and Super Cell was implied to be SSJ2 level, what with his aura and whatnot, so I'd have to say he still wins here with or without said twists/restrictions. Even if it can still be argued that they're identical enough in power level, having a better, more versatile movepool gives Cell quite an edge, as pointed out above.
Dabura. SPC was killed by a ssj2 Gohan with less than half his power meaning he essentially was killed by a ssj1 Adult Gohan if you believe the 2x multiplier. If not ssj2 Adult Gohan should not have lost so much power he is less than half of one arm Gohan. Plus going by the anime Gohan went all out fighting Dabura meaning he used ssj2 against him.
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
It was very evident that he wasn't using SS2 against Dabura. It's easy to assume he was, but visually there was no visual indication that he was anything but standard SS1. On top of that, he was weaker than when he fought Cell, and was pretty evenly matched with Dabura. Tbh I wouldn't even say Dabura could beat one Cell Jr.
Whoa, you're right. There was no visual indication that Trunks was SSJ2 against Dabura, like when he sparred against Goku in DBS.
Dabura only looked good against Gohan because Gohan's fighting skills became unpolished through lack of training. A skilled ascended SSJ is enough to not only counter Dabura's spit but completely demolish him, it seems , whereas beating Cell requires nothing short of an SSJ2 or above.
Like I said, ssj2 Gohan killed Super Cell with less than half his power. He admits this to Goku in the beam struggle who responds that it's ok he's at that level if he just goes out he'll win which he did. Now fast forward to the Buu saga. We know Goku said that Dabura was equal to Cell, and despite both he and Vegeta knowing that Gohan was weaker in the Buu saga than Cell Saga they still let him fight Dabura despite him being equal to Cell. If Cell was truly as strong or stronger than SSJ2 Gohan they would not have so casually let a weaker Gohan take on Dabura. I'll get to this later. During the fight Goku showed a bit of surprise with Dabura, claiming that Dabura was much stronger than he though AKA Cell level. Vegeta agreed but said if Gohan didn't get weaker he would have still won. Note this does NOT retract Gokus statement of Dabura being stronger it just simply means that even though Dabura is stronger than previously thought that if SSJ2 CG Gohan still existed he would have won with ease.
The counter arguments I see are the following. First people would claim SPC is not the Cell Goku compared Dabura to that he must have compared him to a weaker Cell since Gohan got weaker and to many people it appeared that SPC was as strong as SSj2 Gohan. That is not true since as said earlier SSJ2 Gohan killed SPC with less than half his power. That's confirmed by both Goku and Gohan. If you believe that SSj2 is a 2x multiplier than that means SSj2 Gohan killed Cell with essentially his SSJ1 Buu saga levels of power since that's the form that people argue Gohan fought against Dabura. Assuming that Buu saga Gohan was 1.5x weaker than his CG self, that puts the level of power Gohan used against Cell in the SSj1 levels of power in his Buu saga self.
In fact what further backs up that Dabura was compared to SPC was Gokus comment to Gohan before Gohans 2nd round with Dabura. Goku told him to use the same rage he used to kill SPC against Dabura implying the same level of power is required to kill Dabura.
Another argument that people also try and argue for SPC is how SPC broke Gohans arm with a supposed casual blast. First of all it was a Death Beam not a casual blast and it was against ASSJ Vegeta but that's just a minor thing. What really matters is what Gohan said right after he got hit. He stated that Cell powered up more than he thought implying SSJ2 Gohan did not realize how strong SPC really was and essentially got caught off guard. Remember before Gohan was at a level of power to simply torture Cell not kill him even though he could do so in one hit. If he properly powered up Gohan would have been able to handle SPC.
Another thing is that people claim SPC was joking around with Gohan. That's also not true. Goku confirms that Cell was going all out by telling Gohan to kill SPC by going all out just like Cell is doing with his KHH. Finally the Daizenshuu and the anime both state Gohan was a SSJ2 against Dabura. While yes the Manga is the highest canon it was never said Gohan was not a SSJ2 and simply there not being Lightining in his aura is not enough proof. Two secondary canon sources confirm he's a SSJ2 and the manga does not contradict that idea. One would argue that what I mentioned earlier how Goku told Gohan to use the same power he used to kill SPC to use against Dabura would be proof that Gohan wasn't a SSJ2 since the power could have been his SSJ2 form only but remember Gohan has always had the ability to rage past his limits. It's just as viable that he could access his old power especially since like I said the power SSJ2 Gohan used to kill SPC was less than half of his full power.
The final thing that people would argue especially those who believe SSJ2 is just a 2x multiplier is if SSj2 Gohan did kill Cell with less than half his power that would mean he killed SPC at not even 100% SSj1 levels of power yet normal Cell beat up Gohan. However, Normal Cell was not strnger than SSJ1 Gohan. Gohan throughout the entire fight was not trying to fight back, he even wanted to talk things out with Cell since he was afraid of his anger and going all out in a fight, which led to Cell free shots essentially. In fact Android 16 even said that Gohan does have the power to kill Cell in his SSj1 form but Gohan was simply holding back.
I feel I've wrote too much so I will make another post but I promise it won't be too long.
Also Trunks was a SSJ2 vs. Dabura. Pretty sure that was said actually.
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
Last edited by The Merchant on Aug 4th, 2016 at 09:58 PM
Essentially this is what I believe using a number chart to make things simple.
SSJ2 CG Gohan: 100.
SSJ2 Adult Gohan: 67.
SSJ1 CG Gohan: 50.
SSJ1 Adult Gohan: 33.5
Gohan in the beam struggle was less than half, how much so is unknown. But since Dabura as I've said is equal to SPC yet they let Gohan take him on despite being weaker than his CG self. Whether you think Gohan was a SSJ or 2 against Dabura isn't all that important since either works with knowing this knowledge. Oh and Gohan did not go all out in the beam struggle until the very end when Goku told him to not worry about damaging the Earth if he went all out that they'll fix it with the DBs. I also forgot to address another argument how Vegeta distracted Cell. While yes he did distract Cell it didn't power down Cell unless you believe a base Vegeta can power down SPC. All it did was give Gohan enough time to make up his mind and go all out.
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
Goku wanted to see how Gohan's power was by that point, regardless of how strong Dabura was.
While being hit by Vegeta's attack didn't essentially weaken Cell, it did distract him long enough for him to lower his defenses for a moment in the clash for Gohan to go straight for the kill. And nah, Cell was taking his time toying with Gohan before that. He wouldn't of been laughing or making all those boastful comments during the kahemahema clash if he wasn't winning or was struggling.
Regardless of Cell's finishing move on Vegeta being a death beam, generic ki blast, or whatever, if SPC was that much below SSJ2 level, then Gohan at the very least should've been fast enough to be able to save Vegeta from the attack without getting hit by it (let alone his power getting halved from it), regardless of underestimating his renewed opponent. Also to note SPC shown casually able to one-shot ASSJ's when he killed Trunks.
If them certain official sources stated that adult Gohan went SSJ2 against Dabura (regardless of the lack of SSJ2 lightening aura being present), then I concede there, but I looked again at the Trunks vs Dabura part in DBS, and I neither saw an SSJ2 aura, or it being mentioned that he was SSJ2 there (at least from the translations I'd been watching), meaning future Dabura may have been killed by an ASSJ. It doesn't appear to be known exactly when future Trunks attained SSJ2 level.
__________________
Last edited by Ridley_Prime on Aug 5th, 2016 at 04:41 AM
One could argue Future Trunks was MSSJ against Dabura --- his hair didn't look much ASSJ-ish and he and Vegeta were already bent on mastering SSJ after they witnessed Goku and Gohan doing it, weren't they?
MSSJ is full-powered SSJ right? I guess it was really more along the lines of that in the Trunks vs Dabura case. Sometimes I forget there's even a difference between that and ASSJ, so I might lump them together unintentionally. Amazing how many forms there were between regular SSJ and SSJ2, what with them, and the useless muscular USSJ state.
Yes, MSSJ = FPSSJ. Also known as Super Saiyan Grade Four (grade 1 = noob ssj, grade 2 = assj, grade 3 = ussj).
It only seems logical that he learned MSSJ (some fans even argue that he and Vegeta already did or at least were close to it by the time of Cell Games), given that he eventually unlocks even SSJ2.
Wouldn't that make Dabura much weakčr then Cell, instead of just as powerful like Goku said?
Unless we're assuming Trunks MSSJ is that much stronger then Goku's, and he could have defeated vanilla Perfect Cell.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Well, we *could* assume Goku meant "normal" PC when comparing Cell and Dabura
Honestly, it's hard to say. And that sparring with Goku... Trunks did way better than he should've. So maybe his SSJ1 is that much stronger than "classic" SSJ2?
Gets pretty convoluted. Power levels in Super are giving everyone a headache.
Both Goku and Vegeta already knew how strong Gohan was in the Buu saga. They saw him transform as a SSJ2 with Kibito earlier on. Yet despite knowing he was weaker not only did they let him take on a Cell level opponent but Goku showing a bit of surprise with Daburas performance implies Gohan should have been able to handle him pretty handily.
Base Vegetas attack doing anything to Cell at all besides taking away his attention is unrealistic. Cells power should not have dropped in any way especially not when he was pouring out a massive KHH in the process especially not from base Vegeta. As I stand, all Vegetas distraction did was give Gohan a few more seconds to make up his mind to go all out instead of Cell somehow being supressed by a Base Vegetas ki blast. And no Cell was already going all out in his KHH struggle. Him boasting is to be blunt irrelevant. He himself implies this two times, once before he unleashed his KHH he said that he's done messing around and is going to end this as fast as possible and his solar system busting line implies he's going beyond his originally perceived limit which was just busting Earth. Goku also confirms Cell was going all out when he tells Gohan to go all out like Cell is doing with his KHH and he'll win.
Gohans SSJ2 at that time was still holding back so he could torture Cell plus later in the beam struggle Gohan also subconsciously was holding to not damage the Earth as noted by Goku. What proves he was holding back a ton was him being able to ultimately kill SPC by going all out with less than Half his power.
Daizenshuu 7 specifically says Gohan was a SSj2 vs. Dabura and the anime screenshots imply that Ghan was at full power as well. Daizenshuu also says that abura and SSj2 Gohan were even and that Daburas power equals Cells, however the manga adds to the tidbit regarding Daburas magical abilities. Goku considers Daburas magical abilities significant enough as an increase to his strength making Dabura stronger than he thought AKA Cell level. Although to be conservative I believe that in raw power Dabura equals Cell but with his versatility regarding his Magical Abilities it will allow him to beat Cell since again it makes him stronger than what Goku originally thought AKA Cell level.
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
@Ton: (Mind if I call you that?) Gohan said he lost less than half his power during the beam struggle against SPC not normal PC.
Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P6.2-5
Context: after Gohan's injured saving Vegeta, and Cell charges up his final Kamehameha
Goku: “Go strike with an all-out Kamehameha, like Cell! If you do that, you’ll definitely win! Absolutely!”
Gohan: “B-but, the way I am now…I can only use one arm, and even my ki is already less than half…”
[ ]
Goku: “That’s alright, you can win! Believe in your own power! Show me one last time…The power we created together!”
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
KMC Community Forums
Aug 2nd, 2016 07:10 AM
, whereas beating Cell requires nothing short of an SSJ2 or above.
