Id’s argument is so full of wholes I don’t really know where to begin.
In Id’s own scans we see the “lord high librarian” (the guy MOST in the know, apparently) tells Jane that maybe once, EONS ago it was alive. This sort of contradicts the whole idea of a sentient hammer now.
Let’s let that slide and assume for a moment that the Uru mallet actually is alive.
1. What evidence do we have it is an intelligent sentience that Nate could use ???
2. better yet what feats do we have for this “sentience” using the power of Mjilnor???
Id would like us to believe that his Psychometry somehow unlocks the knowledge to bring every big feat of Mjilnor to the table but even IF there is a sentience within the hammer we have no evidence that it knows how to wield the esoteric capabilities of Mjilnor.
Those were done by the conscious minds of the various wielders of Mjilnor (we've seen their thought panels doing it for decades), each of which used the mighty hammer very differently.
The best he can claim is that he knows how to do what the “living storm” did in it’s fight with Odin in his scans. I fight it LOST.
No limits fallacy Psychometry
That brings us to whole number 2 in his Psychometry scans.
1. The first link is broken I assume (all I saw was some girl doing her make up in a car window).
2. The second doesn’t show anything of note.
3. The third shows that Nate quite clearly DOESN’T get very detailed information. He saw the last couple of days (in what appeared to be minutes) and still was making suppositions as to what those images meant. “the boy must be a mutant” “A PSI like me” these aren’t even DEFINITE learnings.
4. His alleged “instant knowledge” scan was of a hand gun. Seriously are we truly being expected to believe that learning how to use a hand gun that has a trigger and MAYBE a safety switch is the same as being able use the thousands of different applications Mjilnor has been used for over almost 6 decades of print???
Poor start to battle
Id has admitted that he has no prep, that this ALL he has said transpires ON THE BATTLEFIELD during the battle. He didn’t even think to put up a shield or do anything to protect himself WHILE he used his Psychometry to know Mjilnor thoroughly just got straight to it.
So by the time he has some LIMITED knowledge on how to use Mjilnor’s more esoteric abilities I’ve already shrunk him, encased him in a force field (one that is 100 times stronger than the ones Daimon throws up at the snap of his fingers according to Id’s own scans), and hit with BOTH a world force storm and an AOE soul fire attack. Said Soulfire attack ALSO by Id’s own evidence is 100x more powerful than Daimon normally does.
I mean seriously people I already shown how quickly Daimon can act. Not to mention he shrunk that monster so quickly those around him had to ask what had happened, and that was WITHOUT Mjilnor enhancing his energy by 100 times. Not putting up some type of defence before wasting time using Psychometry was a major gaff. One that ensures you lost before you were ever able to try and make me unworthy with your psionic attack.
Complete Wasted write up to this point
It then becomes obvious that Id knows full well his “sentient Mjilnor” and “Psychometry” wont work because he does absolutely NOTHING with it. After going to the trouble of using the sentience in Mjilnor to learn all about it what exactly does Id Do with what he has learned?? He makes a psionic attack just Like Nate has always done. He goes to all the trouble of loading the scans to show something that he then completely fails to employ. Instead all we get is Nate Grey same old same old with energy amped by a factor of 100.
Worthiness of Mjilnor
If your going to claim your going to make Daimon remember a time he was unworthy, then the burden falls on you to present an example of this.
Worthiness of Mjilnor is all about honor. Rage and anger don’t make one unworthy, if they did that Warriors madness Thor wouldn’t be able to wield Mjilnor now would he. Honor is about knowing and doing what is morally right, and in this Daimon is always worthy.
Remember this is the Mjilnor of which Hellstrom is worthy of, so just as warrior madness doesn’t make Thor unworthy so will it be for Dark Soul Daimon.
Judges the fact is even if Id could find scans showing Daimon in a state unworthy before, they are of little to no value to him, for two reason.
1. He has to give proof that this type of attack is going to even affect the SON of Satan. Remember to achieve this he has to
A) Get through the shield I erected around him at the onset of battle when I shrunk him
B) Get past the psionic resistance Daimon has
C) Get past the ability of Mjilnor to simply absorb energy attack (of which psionics is one) and return it a100 fold
D) do ALL this while enduring a world force storm and a soul fire attack
E)Overcome the vastly reduced power output he will have in his shrunken size.
Spiderman has the strength of a spider but what spider can lift 30 tons?? If Nate is shrunk to an inch is size from his 6 foot height this makes him 1/72 his size comparatively the power output just over 1 and 1/3 of what Nate normally dishes out. His shrunken Mjinor makes his shrunken form nary a wory since Daimon;s output is still at times 100.
2. If he is successful he ends up dealing with Daimon’s full dark soul unleashed. While not at 100 times his normal power output it’s still a vast amp over what he would be facing in a standard Daimon and more than enough to demolish shrunken trapped Nate.
Recap: The End is Near
Just to reiterate. I am taking advantage of my psionic powers to establish a link between Nate and Mjolnir, and thus squeeze out all the knowledge & power the mallet can offer Nate. Given that it is now confirmed Mjolnir has an sentient mind of his own, and Nate's telepathy are vast....like cosmically vast. This should not be a problem at all and would link up the moment Mjolnir is held....meaning instantly.
The moment the bell rings, I create a psionic armor that was potent enough to fight Hulk and beat back Thanos. And charged in the direction of Hellstorm. Again exploiting the fact Mjolnir has a sentient mind, I pull a feat from the pages of Dark X-Men, and disarm Hellstorm by making them both remember the time they where unworthy "Psychosomatically". Thus sending his Mjolnir away, and follow up with a savage beating.
With Hellstorm rendered unworthy. It is going to be hard for Beats to argue against the fact that the gap in physical strength is to wide for him to reach. On top of my energy attacks benefiting of supercharge thanks to Mjolnir generous 100x implication.
The expectation I am setting up for the end of this match, is is the horrific violation taking place in the form Daimon in seared pieces flesh bludgeoned to death at the hands of my Smash Bro.
So lets get on with this circus. Same old debate style. Deny my prep works, glorify your own, and contradict yourself along the way. Pure beauty.
Why the Combo Works: X-Man + Mjolnir
This combo works specifically well in this tournament due to the key plot revelation in the recent Thor book. Which is that the mallet is sentient, and is used to explain why Mjolnir is no longer following the commands issued by Odin, or Thor. As well as acting on its own even when Jane is in possession of it, to the point that it SPEAKS to Jane.
This is fantastic in this tournament setting because it creates a point for telepaths such as X-Man to exploit. Nate can do what he does best when he mind links onto anyone. Read minds and extract information. Psychometry simply serves to facilitate the hole processes due Mjolnir also being an item.
Ill back it up.
Mjonir Speaks to Jane farther reinforcing it is alive. https://imgur.com/a/P1kxV
Psychometry: Contact with an object tells you its whole story, suggests if future even. https://imgur.com/a/TZUN7
Telepathy: Nathan learns the history/life experince of Moira https://imgur.com/a/tYk2R
The end result is simple, I can justify why I am able to use Mjolnir esoteric. Beats on the other hand gave no justification as to why Daimon can do the same.
You dont have Prep, I dont have prep, No One has prep
I love these jabs. Same debate style everyone uses. Hur Hur "Your plan does not work, but mine does." You will see the same thing done by other contestants in in the following matches.
As explained earlier, I don't need prep-time to unlock the hammers secrets. They are open to me just by holding the hammer thanks to my vast psionic powers. The funny thing is despite being able to. I am not using far to esoteric abilities from Thor. And my plan is as simple is they come. Apply a mind whammy and smash you to bits.
However YOU dont have any prep either, and absolutely NO! justification as to why you would be able to pull of feats from Mjolnir other than simply because. Yet you want to:
Let your darkside take over
Conjuring a force field for yourself.
Hold Nate in a force field.
Create shadow duplicates.
And than conjure a spell to create another force field.
Only to conjure another a world class storm.
All of this in the opening bell....
That was an exmpale of him flashing someones memory to gain knowladge. But nice dodge of him as a Shaman and how he learned decade worth of history in Dark X-Man.
Yeah your not benefiting of the 100x multiplier. Your character can pick up the Hammer...thats it. But your character does not have knowledge or history of using Mjolnir amping properties. Simply being of magical or mystical orgin does NOT justify the fact. Maybe if you had say an ability like say "Psychometry" would be different case . Burden of proof falls on you to prove how he would be able to learn or know how to use Mjolnir beyond just being able to hold it.
Holy Shit. You are worthy by magic of this tournament. You want me to point out a time when Daimon was unworthy of being Thor or holding Mjolnir? EASY his entire run and appearances in Marvel comics. [csm]smurph[csm]
Rounding UP His Intentions
His uses of his plan are cut in half due to not justifying how he learn to use Mjolnir. On top of the fact I applied a mental whammy to render him Unworthy of Mjolnir. Leaving only Daimon to fend with his own abilities.
1 - Entrap Nate in a force field: This is useless: Nate is a teleporter able to move through realities as well as time and space.
2 - Shrink Nate: Again Useless. Nate has complete control over his body. He created a faux body for himself after reforming from having his essence broken down to sub cellular level across the Earth.
3 - Create Duplicates: The effectiveness are not shown in panel, by all means he could be dividing his strength amount his clones or they are simply not strong at all. Regardless he has forced Idaris to both merge and split them up in the arc Fearful Symmetries.
4 - AOE Attacks: Not only Nate psionically curve explosives, he would tank them just fine thanks to his psionic armor.
End result is clear. You are disarmed, and outmatched.
This is the End
First off special thanks to Host and Beats for being part of this geek tourney. And I also want to thank the judges for taking their time to read my replies.
Beats made a special focus on X-Mans ability to make a mental link with Mjolnir and how unlikely it is for Nate to pull feats from. Three short points.
I have read his opening post along with the others. There is no preptime for anyone. Yet my opening post seems to simplest one so far. There is nothing complicated so far. Yet Beats wants to hammer the skewed fact despite his post being much more involved.
The bases of this combo is relayed on the fact that Mjolnir being sentiment. Its a key plot point in the recent run of Thor. Because of the fact, drafting a potent telepath makes an obvious choice to exploit and maximize the uses of Mjolnir. Despite the fact I didn't really on heavy Thor feat. It comes to a great surprise that Beats sums up his argument with "But you cant! But you wont!". In my experience these arguments are made out of fear to minimize the impact or the effectiveness my Combo has to offer.
Beats arguments are contradicting in the sense that, the same reasons applied to Nate can be thrown at Hellstorm. Why does Hellstorm have all this time to muster up spells and shields? How does Hellstorm know how to use any ability of Mjolnir? At the very the introduction post serves a reason as to why Nate would be effective with Mjolnir...Beats is coming up empty-handed for his own.
Enough of that lets move on.
Disarming Beats of Mjolnir: Unworthy Hellstorm
Above all else X-Man comes in handy due to his Telepathy. I am sorry but resistance alone is not going to be enough. You need flat out Immunity, and those characters that have telepathic immunity are far and between. The threat of telepathy endangers not only Beats but everyone in the tournament. His suggestive thought makes physical trauma come into reality. And its not far fetched Thor became unworthy because of what was whispered in his ear....but Nate can make anyone become unworthy because he can implant that thought deep within the subconscious.
It does not help that Nate is a telepathic monster. His telepathic powers have seared through a wave of telepaths on Earth. https://imgur.com/a/cxGw0
If you think Mjolnir by adding some extra level of mental protection. Think again! Not so long ago Thor was turned into deranged rock star character complete with physical manifestation because he was convinced as so. Hail Satan Anyone?!?! https://imgur.com/a/FBzfB
There is no doubt in my mind Daimon would fall victim to Nate's telepathy, and hammer time by Smash Bro Nate.
Sorry about that judges, KMC is being particularly difficult right now.
This is not preptime. Nate can unlock the secrets of Mjolnir and learn how to wield it as good as Thor or Jane just by holding hammer. [/quote ]
[quote] The moment the bell rings, I create a psionic armor that was potent enough to fight Hulk and beat back Thanos. And charged in the direction of Hellstorm.
So which is it?? Are you armoring up and attacking me or psychometry learning about Mjilnor??
Oh that's right
Deny my prep works,
But by BZ forum rules there isnt any prep AND you stated as much in your opener. You cant get it both ways just because it suits you.
Not instant, Not everything_
Through the use of a combination of Psychometry and Telepathy Nate going to learn everything there is to learn about Mjolnir, and becuse Nate is such a powerful Telepath it is done instantly
Its just such a shame your evidence doesnt support "instantly" or "everything there is to learn". A few recent days over minutes is not everything and not instant. Even the catching up on things and gaining wisdom scans we see Nate asking "what have they done" and being surprised by being "found hiding in time". Every single scan shows something that undermines Id's whole concept of instant complete knowlwdge. Hense there is an amount of time. Might be small but exists.
Of course then we have your new scans, one_ that shows nothing but hearsay (which we never accept) and doesnt even show Nate using Psychometry. In fact saying it was just as easy to learn the highest listed price. Another showing that he gets some of Moira's memories in the time it takes to hold a conversation. Psylock even tells us Moira is beating him (talking him to death). What exactly is that supposed to prove??
That is completely excluding the fact that I've yet to see evidence that the sentience in Mjilnor even knows how its wielders have done what they have with it.
Kilawog and Kyle wield a power ring completely different to Hal so TP scanning Hal wouldnt give you the ability to use the ring how they had. THAT would be EVERYTHING there is to learn.
It doesnt work because you havent provided feats that supoort what you want to do at the level and time you say. Not one single feat of this sentience wielding the power of Mjilnor beyond propelling Jane to the library and it talking.
Great so basically Nate has learned how to run away. 🖒 Good to know.
missed some pretty big points
However YOU dont have any prep either, and absolutely NO! justification as to why you would be able to pull of feats from Mjolnir
Why exactly would I need prep?? In case you missed it EVERYTHING I did in my whole battle was something I showed Hellstrom do without Mjilnor. I never claimed any special knowledge of the Uru mallet becasue I never used or needed any. All I did was use the fact that Mjilnor amps the energy it wields by a factor of 100. I was going to post the scan you did in my second post but didn't have to.
Oh but that's right
Yeah your not benefiting of the 100x multiplier. Your character can pick up the Hammer...thats it. But your character does not have knowledge or history of using Mjolnir amping properties.
So the forum rule of basic knowledge is invalid?? Either that or Hellstrom must have lived his life in some whole with no contact with the outside world.
I mean its pretty standard knowledge that Thors hammer absorbs and redirects energy. Added to which Daimon has wielded his trident his whole life that also absorbs, amplifies and redirects certain forms of energy.
Daimon's netherainium trident drains energy from creatures of hell. Since that is what he predominantly fights he uses that quite a bit. I never really expected anyone in the tourney to have an issue using Mjilnor's energy manip since all do in some way.
Maybe if you had say an ability like say "Psychometry" would be different case
Daimon actually has several abilities like psychometry, I just didn't see the point of wasting time on them as they weren't needed. One such abilityis devination.
Entrap Nate in a force field: This is useless: Nate is a teleporter able to move through realities as well as time and space.
Last time I checked so could Bkackheart, the Hood (on his own) and every lowly minion of Dormammu. Didnt help them.
The sad part is if Id had simply put up his psionic shielding that he used against Hulk and Thanos out of the gate BEFORE he chose to use his psychometry his plan would have worked and it may have been a shut out.
Because he didnt it became a quick draw and those moments of hesitation on the battlefield using Psychometry to know Mjilnor cost him the win. There is simply no way he can launch his attack having learned all he claims to have learned before he has been struck by my opening salvo.
1. I've shown Hellstrom shrink a large momster so fast he was asked what happened.
2. I'veshown him act in the time a nerve impulse moves from the wrist to the finger.
3. I've shown him throw up shields in the snap of fingers time.tjete is NO DOUBT that the shields he normally does this quickly wouldnt hold agaimst the psionic armor attck shown, but in this battle I wield mjilnor and all its energy combined with the ampimg factor it would have on Daimons. Let us not forget that Thor himself has thrown up shields as quick thay could cut the power of Cyttorak off from Juggs.this is almost equal if not above Daimon's stronger shields.
4. Said shields are above anything Nate has escaped. Thay have also cintained superior dimensional travelers.
What is to be overcome
Id hasnt shown his attacks breach a shiekd of the strength a Mjilnor eielding Hellstrom can make. Hie dies he even launch this atyack to make me unworthy?
He claims he can escape because he can dimensionally travel but all thise shien held by could as well and with greater scope.
He's alledgedly easily going to deal with simultaneous world force stirms AND AOE soulfire all ehike trying to break a containment that holds more powerful beings so he can attack me with psyionic aemor form. For the record I've no doubt that by the time he is shrunk and contained he will have gained enough knowledge with his TP etc to wield Mjilnor well - THAT his evidence DOES support).
Id made one simoke flaw in an otherwise great strategy. He failed to think of the quick draw. That IMHO will cost him dearly.
Beatbooks vs. Id: Id convinced me more. Beatbooks imo didn't make a strong evidence argument as to why Mjolnir is not sentient enough for Nate Grey to interact with it. If he is Worthy, Mjolnir would subconsciously fed him information that he needs (See Jane) and with the scans Id presented, I am convinced, there is enough overlap that as a Worthy wielder, he could use it tap Mjolnir for knowledge. This was a fun fight, I never expected Damian Hellstorm to be that powerful. Great match up by both! thumb up
I was asked to judge, then basically finished it before I saw Id had already won. So...
As per my norm, I'm going to be writing things out as I read through the match. As such, opinions stated early in the judgement could be contradicted by those later on. I also had a question about knowledge of Mjolnir, but I don't think it affects this match, I think it was answered above in Phil's ruling, and I'd prefer to just get this out since the match is already decided.
Since this match is decided, I'll spare the tension and add a 3rd vote for Id. But notes are below:
- Id's writeup was a bit odd. I thought combatants were granted full knowledge of the hammer, so spending so much time unlocking it was unnecessary. Even if I'm wrong, I'm more or less allowing both combatants intelligent use of Mjolnir's abilities in my ruling, so long as it's within the hammer's power.
- I see Phil touched on this in his ruling as well.
- I'm also a touch skeptical of Nate breaking Hellstrom's link to the hammer, but we'll see (edit: this was never revisited in enough detail to make it credible).
- Id did display Nate's full power, and used the 100x scan, which is always a nice touch (it was one of the earliest Thor scans used in tourneys, and it stupid OP).
- Boks, you gotta stop treating writeups like a respect thread. The parts on durability only serve to emphasize that Nate would win in a brawl. 1-2 scans as needed is fine, but if you're < your opponent in an area, divert attention elsewhere.
- More about who's the worthiest or could unlock Mjolnir fully, which amounts to filler given the rules. It can be tough to remember everything, but given the time you guys have to put into writeups and rebuttals, you owe it to yourselves to know each and every crevice of the rules.
- Hellstrom was always going to have to use magic and trickery to overcome the power disparity. He tried a bit with things like shrinking, but was countered with predictably solid counters like teleportation.
- I do believe Hellstrom wouldn't be taken down by telepathy. But given Nate's best feats, it also shows that it would likely affect Hellstrom greatly. Points were shown on both sides, and this was one of the better-debated aspects of the fight imo.
- Lots of critical comments above, but take it with a grain of salt, and in the spirit the comments are given, which is that I'd expect judges to tell me where they thought I f*cked up, and would appreciate the perspective, even if it's not the kindest writeup. You guys both know your sh*t and presented credible strategies and scans. But frankly, this was a sloppy match for you both. Boks, you gotta go right for the magic stuff he can't counter (and make sure KMC doesn't cut off your scans, a couple of which didn't work), and Id, I expected more preemptive defenses against magic. You overwhelm him believably, but it was more of a blunt strategy than I expected, and as broken as that 100x scan is, it won't win in more tightly-plotted matches. And you both overlooked a crucial rule that two judges knew about who are only tangentially paying attention to things.
Yeah, I was taking my time with this match, and never got around to judging before Id won. Sorry about that. I have a few notes that I wrote, for what its worth:
- I agree that time was wasted on the 'hammer prowess' debate, although if there was some sort of skill/finesse edge to be gained, I suppose I would have given it to Id.
- I don't think the psychometry attack would have worked, despite a whisper being used to depower Odinson (which is a good point), just because I read the rules as making the 'worthiness' of characters an unmutable trait for the sake of the tourney. I think Damborg should maybe rule on this for future matches though.
- I don't think Hellstrom qualifies as a God of Thunder, at all, even if he's a demigod who has used lightning before (I would rule against Wonder Woman on the same grounds).
- I think more of Boks' write up survived scrutiny than Id's, which swayed me towards Daimon.... but frankly, this is a match that was probably won in the drafting stage.