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Super Saiyan Red vs Super Saiyan Blue
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Placidity
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Super Saiyan Red vs Super Saiyan Blue

Hi guys,

I've recently been thinking about the SSR form, and would like to start a discussion on it.

From what I've read, SSB is supposedly the next step up from SSR. Some have even described it as a SSR going Super Saiyan. This is the prevailing theory that I've seen, but feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken. It may even be the official explanation - I haven't followed closely.

Either way, I think it can be an interesting topic.

I contend that SSR is actually much stronger than SSB. Note this is only my theory and I haven't really analysed it too much. I'll just list out some of the reasons why I think this is:

1.Most people (including me) accept that SSB Goku/Vegeta is currently no match for Beerus.

However, SSR Goku WAS a substantial fighter compared to Beerus. Why?


A. Oracle Fish predicted that Beerus would find a rival in the Super Saiyan God.

B. Beerus also had this premonition/dream of fighting someone strong. When I say strong, I mean relative to Beerus, otherwise its just another word. Afterall, SSJ3 Goku would otherwise be "strong" too.

C. Beerus is eager to test his strength on someone capable. Even after Goku turns SSR, while Beerus is surprised at his strength, he still dispatches him easily the first time. However SSR Goku comes back time and time again, and Beerus is clearly impressed (even though he is still a step above him). IMO, Beerus was no more than 2x stronger than SSR. My reasoning is 2x strength would allow Beerus to casually one shot SSR Goku into dust (e.g Gohan SSJ2 vs Cell Jnr). Now if we think Beerus is greater then 2x SSR Goku, than the whole Battle of Gods arc was in a sense bogus play fighting (I mean complete theatrical fake from Beerus, not just moderately holding back). We would also fail to explain what Oracle Fish said and Beerus' premonition.

2.SSR Goku has feats that are far above SSB Goku. Namely:

A. Trading blows between himself and Beerus was destroying the entire universe. Goku had to consciously match Beerus' punches to cancel out the shockwaves. When SSB Goku is fighting other strong characters like Freiza or Zamasu, there is no danger of universe-destroying shockwaves. Now of course neither Freiza or Zamasu is as strong as Beerus, but remember Beerus was holding back to match Goku's strength at that point, otherwise Goku wouldn't be able to cancel out the shockwaves.

Also when Beerus was fighting Champa, their fight seemed to have the same effect (but it was shown a different way - no shockwaves, but it seemed the matter around them was turning to dust), and Whis/Vados stopped them claiming if they continued they would destroy the universe. This proves characters in the same ballpark as Beerus (which I contend SSR was close to) are that strong, and it wasn't a once-off / throw away feat.

B. SSR Goku seems to have more stamina than SSB. This is just my judgement, but it seems SSR was able to recover over and over again against Beerus. What is undeniable is that SSR also displays an ability to regenerate after Beerus impales his hand into his side. Contrast with SSB, who is out for the count after being shot by a laser weapon, or stabbed by Zamasu Black's psionic blade.




My theory is that SSR is the legitimate legendary Super Saiyan God form that Goku no longer has access to (although I see no reason why he can't use the ritual again, but there is a time limit on it). Goku experienced the power, and his body retained *some* of the properties/strength, which also allowed him to reach an alternate transformation, SSB. The reason why I like this theory is because of all the reasons above, but also it explains why SSB Goku is so far below Beerus. Whis has said that if the power of the gods were a tall mountain, SSB Goku/Vegeta would be comparable to a young tree. In other words, SSB Goku may not even be 1% of Beerus (although I personally think SSB Goku is at least 10% Beerus). Now if SSB > SSR, and SSB is only 1% Beerus, then as I mentioned above, the whole Battle of Gods arc falls apart.

Finally, this is just my opinion guys. Someone will probably point out the official explanation, but those don't always make sense to me. There are a lot less holes (or no holes) with this theory IMO. Consider this fan fiction if you will.


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Last edited by Placidity on Nov 2nd, 2016 at 08:43 AM

Old Post Nov 2nd, 2016 08:38 AM
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carver9
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Beerus said that Goku body stored ALL of the Super Saiyan Red power. Also, look at the fight closely. Goku gave Beerus a better fight when he went Super Saiyan vs when he was in his red form.

Also, at the end of their fight, Beerus admitted he was holding back against Goku which is the reason Goku did so well. He had Goku dead to rights during a lot of those scenes but took childish approaches at ending it, like thumping him across the head. Beerus toyed with him.

Goku recently had a hole shot clean through him during his fight against Black and got up and fought both Black and Z better than he did during the entire story before the injury. I'm sure he healed but it just wasn't shown on panel. During the same fight, Black shot holes all through his upper body...that seemed to vanish as well.

In regards to he Universal showing, you have to remember, Goku replicated that in his Super Saiyan form as well when he fought Beerus. Remember when he pushed Beerus back? The power generated from that lit up the entire Universe AND the dimensions outside of the Universe. Goku never lost his super Saiyan form by the way.

Beerus and Champa almost destroying the Universe, Goku and Vegeta wasn't surprised at that power like they could or couldn't replicate it. Remember, Goku was able to learn how to control his universal power. Beerus just doesn't care what is destroyed.

Collateral damage is the only thing that changes things here and as stated, I don't think Goku will purposely try to destroy the Universe due to him learning how to control that power.

Super Saiyan Blue>>>Super Saiyan Red.


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Old Post Nov 2nd, 2016 11:23 AM
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Inedian
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Super Saiyan Blue

Old Post Nov 2nd, 2016 11:33 AM
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Placidity
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9


Goku recently had a hole shot clean through him during his fight against Black and got up and fought both Black and Z better than he did during the entire story before the injury. I'm sure he healed but it just wasn't shown on panel. During the same fight, Black shot holes all through his upper body...that seemed to vanish as well.


Those weren't holes, just bad CGI effects. The same effects were used in Vegeta / Goku vs Hit even when they were in normal state.


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Old Post Nov 10th, 2016 11:11 AM
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carver9
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Placidity
Those weren't holes, just bad CGI effects. The same effects were used in Vegeta / Goku vs Hit even when they were in normal state.


He has bandages that is patched on his back and the front of his body. Yeah, he got shot clean through.


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Old Post Nov 10th, 2016 05:30 PM
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Placidity
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
He has bandages that is patched on his back and the front of his body. Yeah, he got shot clean through.


Don't know which scene you are referring to. Which episode ?

Black stabbed Goku with his psionic blade and he was down, had to recover in the machine.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2016 09:40 AM
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carver9
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The scene Goku got stabbed clean through and then got up in a rage when he was told his wife and friends died by Black. After being stabbed and down, he got up with no sign of injury and stomped both of them.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2016 08:18 PM
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Placidity
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They showed a black hole in his body.

Clearly doesn't look like a normal flesh wound, but can't say "no sign of injury".

And he wasn't shot full of holes as there are no other holes in his clothing.

If Goku has a healing ability, it would have been shown like in BoG arc. Unless you think a healing factor is a regular ability Goku now has it didn't even warrant a proper showing/mention.


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Old Post Nov 12th, 2016 01:55 AM
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carver9
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The sword went clean through Goku. We see the black come out of his back. Can't get any clearer than this.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2016 04:43 PM
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SSJGGogeta
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Carver's right here. The Saiyan's are more than capable of regenerating at this point, although it seems to be limited by what's convenient to the plot. It's something that hasn't really been explained or even addressed at this point, but one can surmise that they are able to recover from certain physical injuries with their ki. However, this seems to be extremely limited, and they can demonstrably only do so when they have a plethora of ki remaining, and can still be exhausted to the point where they can no longer regenerate.

Regarding the universe level thing, SSJB Goku is at universe level as well. All the SSJB's are. Champa was even scared of Kaioken X10 SSJB Goku and Hit teaming up against him, iirc. He wasn't confident that he could beat the two of them at once until they were worn out.

The only reason that Goku and Vegeta don't go around destroying the universe in their fights, is because they counter their enemies force just enough to stop them from destroying the universe. They have THAT level of ki control. That's been a plot point since Dragon Ball. Just because they don't destroy the universe with every ki blast, doesn't mean they can't.

Essentially though, yes, the BoG's arc was basically pointless. Either that, or Beerus has been getting stronger at an even greater rate than Goku since that point, which is something I can't see being true. Even SSJB Goku though, is probably just around 1% of Beerus' strength. Even that could be a stretch though, depending on how strong Beerus is compared to Vegito.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2016 11:11 PM
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NewGuy01
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Pretty sure Champa wouldn't actually be in danger against Goku and Hit. I think it's more like when a lazy big dog gets scared off by a feistier little dog.

Old Post Nov 14th, 2016 01:25 AM
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SSJGGogeta
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Pretty sure Champa wouldn't actually be in danger against Goku and Hit. I think it's more like when a lazy big dog gets scared off by a feistier little dog.


Well, I could definitely see that. But even in that case, it would still have to put them at least in the same ballpark as Champa. Which still implies that SSJB Kaioken X10 Goku is at least a chihuahua, if we consider Beerus a Great Dane. He'd still have to be approximately at least 1/10th as strong as Beerus, and that's being extremely generous to Beerus. Otherwise, you could compare that to Superman being scared of someone like, say, Pikachu.

This is all going off of the assumption though, that Merged Zamasu is weaker than Beerus, which he might not be. Regardless though, Vegito Blue should be closer to the Omni-king in terms of power, than he is to Beerus or Whiss.

Didn't they specifically address SSJR vs SSJB though, in the manga? I'm pretty sure SSJB was quite a bit stronger, but SSJR took a lot less ki to sustain.


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Old Post Nov 14th, 2016 01:42 AM
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cdtm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Well, I could definitely see that. But even in that case, it would still have to put them at least in the same ballpark as Champa. Which still implies that SSJB Kaioken X10 Goku is at least a chihuahua, if we consider Beerus a Great Dane. He'd still have to be approximately at least 1/10th as strong as Beerus, and that's being extremely generous to Beerus. Otherwise, you could compare that to Superman being scared of someone like, say, Pikachu.

This is all going off of the assumption though, that Merged Zamasu is weaker than Beerus, which he might not be. Regardless though, Vegito Blue should be closer to the Omni-king in terms of power, than he is to Beerus or Whiss.

Didn't they specifically address SSJR vs SSJB though, in the manga? I'm pretty sure SSJB was quite a bit stronger, but SSJR took a lot less ki to sustain.


Goku used SSJ Red as a go between to save energy for blue, so yeah. (Vegeta calling Goku a cheap sob for using a form he can't access.)


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Old Post Nov 14th, 2016 01:57 AM
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Placidity
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
The sword went clean through Goku. We see the black come out of his back. Can't get any clearer than this.


Yes, and ?

I brought this point up myself originally.


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Old Post Nov 14th, 2016 04:10 AM
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carver9
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Which means the chances of him having a healing is huge.


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Old Post Nov 14th, 2016 01:56 PM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Regardless though, Vegito Blue should be closer to the Omni-king in terms of power, than he is to Beerus or Whiss.


I'm probably misconstruing this, but are you saying Vegito > Whis based on episode 66, or that he should be > Whis based on the boost the potara gave from the Buu arc?


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Old Post Nov 14th, 2016 02:21 PM
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Zack Fair
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Don't look like much healing and more damage soak ala Thor.


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Old Post Nov 14th, 2016 08:00 PM
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SSJGGogeta
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'm probably misconstruing this, but are you saying Vegito > Whis based on episode 66, or that he should be > Whis based on the boost the potara gave from the Buu arc?


No, you're right. That is what I'm saying. Vegito should, by the absolutely ridiculous power level he displayed in the Buu saga, be significantly above Whiss. Think about it like this-

Post ROSAT SSJ1 Gotenks was equal to SSJ3 Goku in strength.

SSJ3 is a 4x boost to SSJ2, and SSJ2 is a 2x boost to SSJ1.

Since SSJ3 Gotenks was roughly equal to Super Buu, this means that both he and Super Buu were 8x more powerful than SSJ1 Gotenks, meaning they were both 8 times more powerful than SSJ3 Goku.

This makes Super Buu 8x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Which makes sense, given that Goku stated that he and Vegeta wouldn't be able to beat base Super Buu even together.


Now, SSJ1 is a 50x boost to base form. Making SSJ3 a 400x boost to base form, altogether.

SSJ1 Vegito was strong enough to utterly outclass Buuhan. To the point where it could be argued that base Vegito was around equal to Buuhan. However, for the sake of accuracy, I will put SSJ1 Vegito at equal to or greater than Buuhan, since we don't know accurately how much more powerful he was than Buuhan.

Super Buu doubled his power by absorbing Gotenks, and Piccolo was not a great enough increase to even be considered at this point. This was enough to solidly defeat Mystic Gohan, meaning that Mystic Gohan was only around 1.5 times stronger than Super Buu.

So, Buuhan was effectively around 2.5 times more powerful than Super Buu, but we can round up to 3x due to the presence of Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks inside of him at this point.

So Buuhan was 3x more powerful than Super Buu, making him 24x more powerful than SSJ3 Goku.

From scaling, we can then make the assumption that base Vegito was AT LEAST as powerful as SSJ2 Goku. We can assume this, because SSJ2 Goku would have to be 48 times more powerful to reach Buuhan's level of power. SSJ1 is a 50x boost to base form, so base Vegito would have to be at least as strong as SSJ2 Goku, to be as strong as Buuhan while a SSJ1. This is actually quite accurate, given that Super Vegito was far superior to Buuhan.

Anyway, this gives us essentially a tangible multiplier to use to accurately represent the potara earrings. When two fusee's of equal power fuse, it results in a 200x boost to either of the fusee's. The resulting fusion can then utilize any boosts that the fused partners share. Which is why Vegito demonstrated SSJ1, and SSJB, but not SSJ3 or SSJR.

Anyway, this would mean that SSJB Vegito is 200x more powerful than either SSJB Goku, or SSJB Vegeta, respectively.

If Whiss was stronger than SSJB Vegito, then he would have to be OVER 200x more powerful than SSJB Goku and Vegeta.

There is absolutely no way that Beerus can boast that level of power over Goku and Vegeta, as Whiss even stated that they could defeat him if they fought him at once, which even the thought of frightened Beerus.

Anyway, we don't know how strong merged Zamasu was, so we can hold this scaling as accurate until it's disproven.

It's very likely that Toriyama has simply written himself into a corner though, and has no real idea of how OP he made Vegito during the Buu saga. TBH, if the scale is the same, Vegito should be roughly 100x stronger than Whiss, and AT LEAST 150 times stronger than Beerus.

Who knows how strong Merged Zamasu really is. Vegito was toying with him the entire time.

Tl;dr

SSJB Vegito should be around 100X more powerful than Whiss, or at least 150X more poweful than Beerus.


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Old Post Nov 19th, 2016 08:01 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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Knowing Super, though, Beerus is still > SSB Vegito. laughing out loud


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Old Post Nov 19th, 2016 02:51 PM
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carver9
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I just watched episode 24 and 25 again and it was mentioned multiples of times that Blue>>>Red. You all probably want to re-look at that episode.


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Old Post Nov 19th, 2016 04:32 PM
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