Not sure how far this topic will go, but I'm still curious to see some opinions nonetheless...
So as of the DBS-era, what are your thoughts on some of the transformation/character multipliers? To help get things started...
SSJ is 50x base.
SSJ2 is 2x SSJ.
SSJ3 is x4 SSJ2.
SSG is ___x SSJ3.
SSB is ___x SSG.
MSSB is ___x SSG.
Beerus is ___x MSSB.
Whis is ___x Beerus.
Daishinkan is ___x Whis.
Zen-Oh is ___x Daishinkan.
*And using SSB Goku as a measuring stick, I'm also curious where you'd rank characters like:
-SSB Vegetto
-Golden Freeza
-Merged Zamasu
-Jiren
-Hit
etc.
??
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Nov 8th, 2017 at 10:45 PM
I'd say Beerus is substantially more than 20x MSSB. After all, Jiren is the first mortal to ever truly reach(and in some cases surpass) the power of Destroyers, and he treated MSSB Goku /w/ 20xKK like an insignificant feeb. I can only assume that Beerus, being the most powerful GoD(at least top 2), would have beaten *that* Goku just as casually. /shrug
...Not to mention that Beerus trounced MSSB Vegeta with literally NO effort when they sparred. /shrug
Probably. Him felling Beerus with a single chop is still canon, after all.
Aside from him stopping all-out strikes from Beerus and Quitela with a single finger, the fact that ALL Destroyers and Angels grovel before him and flagrantly admit inferiority speaks volumes...
That's the common opinion, yes.
...But what if Daishinkan is the Whis to Zen-Oh's Beerus? IOW, he serves Zen-Oh's every whim, but has the power to put him in check if the need arises... Unlikely, sure, but wouldn't that be sumthin.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
There's no reason to believe Mastered SSJB is a thing in the anime. As a matter of fact, MSSJB is most likely the replacement for Kaioken in the manga. Beerus had to "get serious" to trounce MSSJB Vegeta, so it definitely didn't require no effort.
The strongest indicators of Daishinkan's strength are:
1. Whis saying he doesn't stand the slightest chance against Daishinkan.
2. Whis implying Daishinkan has the ability to erase beings from existence, like Zen-Oh.
But ultimately, Whis still refers to Daishinkan in the context of a fighter. Zen-Oh is beyond fighting entirely, and heavily implied to be the Supreme Power thus far in DBS.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
Beerus was toying with MSSB Vegeta initially -- not taking him seriously at all. When Vegeta landed a single hit, Beerus got pissed and owned him casually.
So perhaps I should have said "almost" no effort.
Indeed.
Although the same basic thing could be said about Whis/Beerus. We were originally led to believe that Beerus was > Whis, *until* Beerus told us that Whis is actually far more powerful than himself. /shrug
Either way, I have a strong feeling that Daishinkan will be the 'big bad' in this event -- he's plotting something BIG, imo, and I don't see Zen-Oh intervening in the scheme of things this time, which means he either-
a.) doesn't care about Dai's machinations(Zen-Oh was prepared to wipe out 4 f*cking universes on a whim just before the ToP commenced, after all, so he obviously doesn't give a shit about large-scale destruction, and/or multiversal reorganization.)
-OR-
b.) Zen-Oh simply isn't powerful enough to stop Daishinkan, because Dai is actually >.
*The latter is a long shot for sure, but it would be a very interesting twist nonetheless.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Regarding Zen-Oh vs Daishinkan, Whis and Beerus have both said Omni-King is the most powerful being in existence, which would include Daishinkan. Daishinkan is the supreme fighter, Omni-King is beyond fighting entirely, and can erase the cosmos in the blink of an eye.
So I'd opt for option 1, though I have my doubts that Daishinkan is evil persay. The worst I can see is that he's the one who gave Zen the idea to erase the lower-tier universes. And Daishinkan is simply too strong; most of the angels would probably be on Daishinkan's side as well. Only Zen-Oh could destroy them, and like you said, he doesn't give enough of a shit.
Hell, in the Future Trunks Arc, Omni-King didn't even notice all the Gods were dead, the angels were inactive, or that Zamasu had merged with the timeline.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
Zeno is definitely not applicable to pl. Arms tired from moving them, unable to follow fights. Universe erasing is clearly a trick. He'd probably read as 1, and be killed by that Earth farmer.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
This entirely depends on Manga or anime. Manga I'd say Buu Saga SSJ1 Goku can beat Base Super Goku.
Anime though... ssj3 Gotenks who is 8x stronger than ssj3 Goku was trounced easily by Vegeta so, I'm gonna say that Base Goku is Buutenks Level minimum. Because it was even more one-sided than Mystic Gohan vs Super Buu who was = to ssj3 Gotenks.
As for the multipliers, its extremely hard to gauge, and manga, and anime would give very different multipliers. And to casually just toy with someone you don't have to be that much more powerful than them. Perfect Cell was roughly 2 or 3x stronger than Vegeta and was able to take his hits but was hurt by a blast. Kid Buu was 4x stronger and played around with Vegeta with an ease that Whis has against Beerus.
That said Beerus is definitely hundreds of times stronger than MSSB if not thousands simply because of what we know of Potara, and specifically Vegetto. The rest is hard to say.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
I've mentioned this before, but I doubt this is still accurate. Since it's been established that saiyan bodies have a limit to how powerful they can become (even with zenkai and training), and that in certain circumstances (like with Gohan) the entirety of that power can be used in base, I still figure that those multipliers are going down as they become able to utilize more of their latent power in base. The relevance of the base saiyans in combat and the fact that SSJ2/SSJ3 were stated to have become obsolete by Toriyama (even though SSJ1 isn't) is what makes me think this is the case.
I'm aware that opinion isn't popular for a variety of reasons (varying from person to person), though.
Well, SSJG doesn't directly scale up from SSJ3, it's a power up that revolves around the presence of god ki rather than pushing the body to its limits. Well, at least in the BoG era it must have been dozens of times stronger, although that didn't seem to still be the case when Goku fought Hit.
Somewhere between 1.5x and 3x, it's been shown to be a significant boost, but a SSJG can still keep pace with a SSJB even if they don't have enough power output to do any serious damage.
1x. MSSJB isn't any stronger than SSJB, its full power is just being put to use, whereas normal SSJB is constantly leaking and wasting energy.
If we lend credence to the "Vegetto = Beerus" quote, then he should be some dozens of times stronger.
Hard to say, but from what Toriyama said, we can assume it's at least as much as the difference between Beerus and SSG... So it's probably a ridiculous number.
A couple cuts below Beerus, unless he's charging his Final Kamehameha.
He hasn't been shown in the manga, but from the brief mention that we got, we can assume he's somewhere between SSJG and SSJB.
Roughly equal to SSJB, +Immortality/God Magic/Cloning
We haven't seen him in the manga, but since he's supposed to be GoD+, he's bound to be dozens of times stronger than SSJB.
At his normal level (at the moment) he's not far beyond the upper-end Boo-saga characters. At his maximum power, he's roughly SSJG level. Which isn't bad, because he has time powers.
I suspect by the time we hit the Tournament of Power, he'll be SSJG+ in his normal state.
If we take the Universe 6 tournament as our indicator (which is a bit sketchy, mind you) then base Goku is still probably somewhat weaker than Piccolo, so Boo-saga SSJ3 should still win easily.
Then again, base Black was able to defeat a malnourished SSJ2 Trunks (who could potentially reach SSJ3 levels of power, although it's unclear if he was in good enough condition at the time) pretty quickly, although I think that may just be because Zamasu is that much more skilled than Trunks (similar to how base Goku was keeping up with SSJ2 Caulifla in the anime). Black did seem to be initially overwhelmed by the brunt of the assault, and he won by outmaneuvering him.
Last edited by NewGuy01 on Nov 9th, 2017 at 05:25 AM
Red couldn't even make Jiren flinch while blue knocked him back.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
^That depends if we're counting the Spirit Sword as an actual power up, or more like a Spirit Ball with positive energy haxxx.
For the purposes of the thread, an simplified model of roughly how I see the current power scale would look something like:
Base ~ At least 5x EoZ, possibly far more
SSJ1 ~ 20x to 25x base
SSJ2 ~ 1.33x to 1.66x SSJ1
SSJ3 ~ 1.75x to 2.25x SSJ2
SSJG ~ 25x to 30x SSJ1
SSJB ~ 2x to 3x SSJG
Potara Fusion (with two equal participants) ~ 60x to 72x multiplier
This is keeping in mind that Goku and Vegeta are currently also much better martial artists than they were during Z, and have much better control of their ki. Even with their power levels equalized, current Goku/Vegeta would casually beat down their EoZ counterparts by means of skill IMO.
Equal? News to me, never thought SSJ Gotenks was quite that strong. His fight with Buu was mostly with techniques, physically he couldn't do much of anything until SSJ3.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
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Nov 8th, 2017 10:40 PM
