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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Star Wars Versus Forum » SUPER FIGHT II - Darth Vader (The Ellimist) vs Revan (DarthAnt66)


SUPER FIGHT II - Darth Vader (The Ellimist) vs Revan (DarthAnt66)
Started by: Jaggarath

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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Warning SUPER FIGHT II - Darth Vader (The Ellimist) vs Revan (DarthAnt66)

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CONDITIONS:

- All characters are in their Legends incarnations.

- Darth Vader is as of Episode VI: Return of the Jedi.

- Revan is as of The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan.

- Each character starts 30 meters away from each other.

- The battlefield is 300 meters by 300 meters of open terrain.

RULES:

- Each debater will have two full weeks to respond to the last debate post.

- Each debater can have no more than four responses with over 2,500 characters.

- The final post made cannot introduce wholly original or new arguments.

- The debate must be concluded by April 30th, 2018 at 12:00 AM ET.

- The winner of the debate will be decided by a panel of five judges*.

* NOTE: This rule is subject to change and may be completely removed.

DISCUSSION:

- Members are allowed to make comments but are prohibited from the following:

-- Members cannot discuss who they think wins in the fight within the thread.

-- Members cannot debate any arguments made by either debater within the thread.

-- Members cannot start their own debates or off-topic discussion within the thread.

- All posts that include trolling or insulting, or break the rules above, will be removed.


__________________

"There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."

Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 12:33 AM
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ILS
Restricted

Registered: Oct 2014
Location: Korriban

Account Restricted


 

Looking forward to this.


__________________

“The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.

Last edited by ILS on Jan 28th, 2018 at 12:43 AM

Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 12:37 AM
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Sirion_Of_Doom
Restricted

Registered: Jan 2018
Location:

Account Restricted


 

azronger won

Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 12:38 AM
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Azronger
Azronger Reborn

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites


 


__________________

Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 01:18 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

The part I'm looking most forward to is the inevitable quibble over the significance of Killer's facial expressions.

Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 03:51 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

I'm most looking forward to how the entire forum massively backtracks when Ant makes his first post.


__________________

Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 03:53 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

Nah, don't think the forum's in the mood to imitate you.

Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 04:11 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Reminder: "Members cannot start their own debates or off-topic discussion within the thread."


__________________

"There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."

Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 04:13 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

sorry ant.

Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 04:14 AM
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Emperordmb
LSDMB

Registered: Mar 2014
Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan


 

So Kbro, how's the weather today where you live?


__________________

Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"

Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 04:19 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Emperordmb
So Kbro, how's the weather today where you live?

"November rain" is my weather
"One mic" is my feather
"Blue Sky" is da leather
"Don't ask me why" bout da weather

Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 04:23 AM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

Opener finished, undergoing final review.


__________________

Luke Skywalker. A simple farmboy – became powerful. Now... beyond powerful.

Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 11:49 AM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

And so it begins.

I’d like to give an enormous shout out to Azronger for being a walking encyclopedia of sources, as well as various others such as Syndicate, SunRazer and ILS. You guys are the best. thumb up

Prior to delving into the literature for this debate I had planned to argue that Vader had the speed and durability feats to withstand Revan’s ranged attacks and turn the fight into a lightsaber duel that he would win. As with perhaps the majority of the forum, I was uncertain over whether Vader was actually stronger in the Force than Revan. After looking at the evidence however, I decided to scrap that initial argumentation strategy because it seems clear to me know that Vader is better than Revan at basically every meaningful combat category, and so the case for him is literally “he is better at everything”.

So this opener is essentially going to be a series of lines of comparison that demonstrate Vader >> Revan across the board. That way we can get verification:

  • From multiple sources
  • Through different methods (e.g. environmental feats, powerscaling)
  • In multiple areas (Force, dueling, etc.)



Can Revan even hurt Vader?

Nope.

Revan cannot meaningfully hurt Vader with the Force. His telekinesis and lightning are literally orders of magnitude weaker than what we have seen Vader tank with minimal effort. If I can establish this, I can demonstrate that the best case scenario for Revan if he wants a Force fight is a tie, but more realistically if someone is so powerful you can’t even hurt them, you’re going to lose.



Vader tanks Starkiller’s lightning.

Just how ludicrously powerful is Starkiller’s lightning?



Starkiller oneshots a shielded Imperial Star Destroyer.

In one of the most ludicrously powerful combat feats in Star Wars, Starkiller powers a cannon that literally tears a star destroyer in half with a single hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyZUlogklts#t=18m09s


Two points of clarification. Firstly, we know that Starkiller directly powers the cannon because the cannon’s interiors get taken out by a “direct hit” that visibly blows up its innards. Indeed, here’s the prima game guide’s description:

Before powering the massive cannon, sneak around to its left side. Use Force Grip to stack the two large boxes, then climb onto the gun. Double-jump out onto the stack of boxes, then double-jump dash out to the holocron floating overhead.

The Force Unleashed II – Official Game Guide


Clearly he “powers” the cannon, so there’s no ambiguity there.

Secondly, given that the star destroyer has just dropped out of hyperspace to engage an enemy fleet, it stands to reason that it would have its shields up.



How absurdly powerful are a star destroyer’s shields?

The AotC and RotS Incredible Cross Sections reveal that a medium turbolaser from an Acclamator troop transport produces 200 gigatons of TNT-equivalent in a single shot. This is several times the combined nuclear arsenal of mankind. And yet we see in a multitude of sources like the Battle of Coruscant at the beginning of RotS that capital ships can fire at one another for hours without blowing one another up.

Skeptical of the Incredible Cross-Sections? Too bad. Here’s Leland Chee on the subject:

https://forums.spacebattles.com/thr...35#post-8574808

Unfortunately the original Q&A is now defunct, but at the time you have at least dozens of eyewitnesses (myself included) who saw the link, many of whom were highly skeptical of the ICS’s, and agreed that he did indeed make the confirmation. So whether you believe in “fanon” calculations or not, these are enshrined in Legends.

But even if you want to argue meta and discount Chee’s word entirely, such firepower yields are necessary for the Base Delta Zeroes (whether named or not) we see in the literature:

"The Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to reduce a civilized world to slag." – The Imperial Sourcebook

”We failed to destroy it last time.” “We can reduce a planet to molten slag from orbit. Let's not rule out the possibility of needing to do that to Centerpoint—even if it would be best preserved to defend the Alliance.” “It's populated,” said Luke. “So are warships.” Omas interrupted, looking at his chrono.’ – Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines

“Base Delta Zeroes reduce a planet's surface to smoking debris in a matter of hours” – Star Wars Technical Journal

To turn a planet’s surface to molten slag would require firepower on the order of what we see in the Incredible Cross-Sections.

So in other words, Starkiller with some reasonable exertion can power a cannon that basically has continent-busting firepower.

Before you freak out, this does not mean that Starkiller himself can actually blow up continents, because the power output of Force attacks does not always scale very well with area of effect (e.g. Yoda Force pushing Palpatine). That may be why he needs to power the cannon and can’t just arc lightning across space to take out the star destroyer – but as we’ll see below, that limitation doesn’t really apply to the scaling.



Vader tanks Starkiller’s Force lightning on multiple occasions.

Yet this absurdly powerful lightning doesn’t seem to bother Vader much, as he tanks it on multiple occasions:

A burst of lightning arced from Starkiller's fingers. Too late, the Dark Lord raised his lightsaber to catch the attack. Lightning crawled up and down his chest plate and helmet, provoking a painful whine from his breathing apparatus. The servomotors in his right arm strained.

Starkiller had only a split second before his former Master repelled the attack. The Force flowed through him. Droid parts and debris rose up and spun around the room. With a harsh rending sound, the metal wall burst outward, letting in the fury of the storm.

But even in the grip of his passions he knew that there was a difference. He was intimately familiar with what being driven by negative emotions felt like. His original had been a slave to the dark side until Juno and Kota had shown him how to be free. That legacy remained even now. He would choose the emotions that ruled him. He would not be a slave to them.

The dark side tugged at Starkiller, and it was hard to resist. He hated his former Master. He feared for Juno. He doubted the very fact of his existence. Killing the man who had created him would go some way to solving at least two of those problems. The temptation was very strong.

Vader's blade caught the edge of the lightning. The Dark Lord began to straighten.

--The Force Unleashed II


Here he tanks it for like thirty seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A_i2cvowi4#t=18m40s

In both of these cases, particularly the second one, we would fully expect Starkiller to put at least as much exertion into his lightning as he does to power the cannon; indeed, in the video Starkiller is rage amped, boosted by an external source and hits an unshielded Vader for an absurd amount of time. And yet Vader seems unfazed by this such absurd amounts of power.

How can Revan hurt him again?

Continued below


__________________

Luke Skywalker. A simple farmboy – became powerful. Now... beyond powerful.

Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 01:51 PM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

Vader tanks Galen Marek’s suicide blast.

At the end of TFU Galen Marek jumps in front of Palpatine’s lightning and starts moving forward. So Galen Marek has not only caught the Force lightning of the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history, he’s also advancing on him and putting Palpatine in “desperation”:

"Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations." - The Force Unleashed.


Galen Marek is, therefore, at least in this particular state of mind performing at a higher rate than even Yoda had done against the weaker RotS incarnation of Sidious. But then after he’s already been doing something Yoda couldn’t do, Galen goes into a state of oneness before releasing his energy in a final suicide blast:

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials[/b]. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.

He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser.

--The Force Unleashed


It seems pretty obvious that this final attack is a lot more powerful than the Force lightning Starkiller uses to power the ISD-busting cannon, given that he puts all of his energy into it from a state that “made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child”. And we know that he is trying to take out Vader given that he’s attempting “to strike one last time at the Imperials”.

So we have an attack that makes Galen’s continent-busting energies look like a joke hit Vader in the face and send him flying:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3T2Z-1spT8#t=1m04s

And yet…he gets back up with only mild injuries. (We should note again that “continent busting” for Force abilities isn’t supposed to scale to area of effect very well)

How can Revan hurt him again?



Vader tanks and walks through RotJ Sidious’s full powered Force lightning.

Perhaps the most impressive durability feat in Legends has been hiding under everyone’s noses this entire time.

As I’m sure you know, in RotJ Vader kills Sidious. But in order to do so he has to pick Sidious up and walk him over the ledge – in the meantime Sidious is visibly arcing his lightning back on Vader.

But maybe Sidious just wasn’t able to muster up a lot of power in that moment for some reason? Nope:

When the evil Emperor, Supreme Master of the Dark Side of the Force, turned the fullness of his malevolence against Luke, Anakin Skywalker suddenly awoke from the curse that had imprisoned him for so long… Shedding his bleak and soulless identity of Darth Vader, Anakin took the full force of his Dark Master’s evil lightning upon himself - and hurled the Emperor to his death.

--Dark Empire Endnotes



What’s even more absurd is that the lightning isn’t even what kills Vader:

As he watched the agony of his son and the Emperor's glee, Vader finally broke the hold of evil that had suffocated him for so long. Vader grabbed the energy-seething Palpatine and hurled him into the Death Star reactor shaft, where the evil leader was disintegrated. The shock waves of dark power mortally wounded Vader. Luke Skywalker could do nothing for his dying father, the terrible enemy who had saved him in the end.

--The New Essential Chronology



It seems that Palpatine’s death kills Vader from its after effects. Vader doing this isn’t surprising given that Palpatine by RotJ is worried by his power:

Bad enough that Vader was as powerful as he was, though Palpatine was certain of Vader’s loyalty to the dark side.

--The Essential Guide To Characters


So Vader walks through the lightning of someone who is recorded by about 20 sources to be the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived, a being whose weaker incarnations had bent lightsaber blades.

How is Revan going to hurt him again?



Revan, meanwhile, gets laid out by novel Vitiate’s lightning.

Though Revan with his lightsaber initially deflects several of Vitiate’s bolts, as soon as he has to employ tutanimus he gets overpowered pretty badly:

Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to absorb the Emperor’s attack.

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.
- ______Revan novel


You might complain that Vitiate charges his lightning, but it couldn’t have been for long:

Even as she was calling to Scourge to help, Meetra was already sprinting toward the end of the throne room. Scourge hesitated before joining her, taking a moment to survey the situation, memories of their failure still fresh in his mind.

What he saw was not good. Revan was being electrocuted, his body spasming uncontrollably as the Emperor blasted him with dark, purple lightning. Revan’s astromech launched a jet of flame at the Emperor, freeing Revan, who collapsed to the ground. In retaliation, the Emperor disintegrated the offending droid, strode over to where Revan lay, and picked the vanquished Jedi’s lightsaber off the floor.

It all happened in the space of only a few seconds. Meetra was moving fast, but she was too far away to stop the Emperor from eviscerating the prone Jedi at his feet.
- Revan novel


So we have a novel Vitiate charging his lightning for maybe a few seconds vs. RotJ Sidious’s full powered lightning over the course of like ten seconds? Yeah, Vader definitely dealt with more power, unless if you want to seriously argue that Vitiate as of the Revan novel is more powerful than Palpatine as of Return of the Jedi who already has been labeled “greatest known wielder of the Dark Side of the Force” (Dark Empire Endnotes but in the context of Vader serving him), which would scale him above Vitiate (among 100 other lines you can use). And yet while Vader walks through it, Revan essentially gets incapacitated.

So unless if Revan can generate more energy than RotJ Sidious’s lightning, and generate enough power to one-shot an imperial star destroyer, there’s basically nothing he can do to Vader from a distance.

Continued below.


__________________

Luke Skywalker. A simple farmboy – became powerful. Now... beyond powerful.

Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 01:54 PM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

A challenge re: Galen Scaling

Galen Marek has far more feats to his name that I will not emphasize in this post, like one-shotting an army of thousands of droids and blowing apart a frigate. I think it would be a good idea to offer you the opportunity to show me the best environmental combat/short-term feats you can find for Revan or someone he scales off of, and let’s see who matches and mirrors better (we have other kinds of feats like powerscaling below). I think we both know where this will go – that Revan’s very best feats show up on like every page of The Force Unleashed’s novelization.

And Vader scales above both Galen and Starkiller, given that:

  1. Most of these feats happen before Galen’s prime, when he wasn’t a remote match for his master.
  2. Even as of TFUII, pre-prime Vader is giving Starkiller a serious fight. He ragdolls him:

You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

--The Force
Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide


And overpowers him in a Force battle:

https://static.comicvine.com/upload...24065-51913.gif

Given that Vader grows more powerful constantly (see later section), it seems clear that he can co-opt the general power of Starkiller and Galen Marek in this debate. And the fact of the matter is that Galen is taking out hundreds of opponents at the same time with singular uncharged Force pushes while Revan...isn’t.



Vader >> TCW Mace Windu > Revan scaling

Let’s talk about Mace Windu.

And, yes, a slightly different take on Kar Vastor scaling. A lot of posters have an aversion to Vastor scaling because the actual evidence has been a little mischaracterized - but when we delve more deeply into the matter, there really isn’t a case against it beyond personal incredulity.

First, we know Vader > Cronal:

Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, has instilled terror throughout the galaxy since the beginning of the Empire. His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself.

--Shadows of the Empire: Prince Xizor vs Darth Vader Action Figure



And Cronal >= Kar Vastor:

And with the shadow nerve network of meltmassif lacing his body, [Kar Vastor] _had a connection to the fundamental power of the Dark that rivaled Cronal's own.

--Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor


From the above we can conclude that Vader > Vastor. This is independently supported by Nick’s assessment:

It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.

The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was-contained. Pent.
--Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight


Though Nick’s connection to the Force is limited, the whole point of the passage is to emphasize that Vader >> Kar is obvious in spite of that, not that Nick is delusional. To suggest that Nick is wrong in his assessment goes against both the most plausible in-universe explanation and the clear narrative intent (regardless of which you prioritize). Regardless, on its own it can be quibbled – with multiple lines of scaling and nothing contrary, Vader > Vastor becomes clear. It becomes even more clear when we happen to have Luke > Cronal scaling:

In the instant he thought the name, Cronal saw him: a shape of light, absolute, uncompromising, kneeling within the Election Center in the darkest heart of the Shadow Base, his hands solemnly interfolded with the massive paws of Kar Vastor. He had linked his shadow nerves to Vastor's, and through the intimate connection between Vastor and Cronal he had somehow stretched forth to touch the Shadow Lord himself.
In the Dark, Cronal saw Skywalker smile.
Thank you for joining me here. I was a little worried you might get away with that silly crown of yours.
This was impossible. This must be some hallucination, a twisted product of his Darksight run amok. He was in hyperspace! Hyperspace did not, could not, interact with realspace—I was with Ben Kenobi in hyperspace when he felt the destruction of Alderaan. No wall can contain the Force.
Shadows of Mindor


Full passage omitted for length but Luke basically telepathically dominates him. Luke six months after Endor obviously isn’t massively beyond Vader as a Force user, given that as of RotJ Vader could’ve still telekinetically dominated him:

Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion’s spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.

So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me.
--The Courtship of Princess Leia


And it’s not merely telepathy:

He reached out with the Force and slammed shut the Falcon's hatch just as the Vastor body lurched to its feet and reached Luke in one lightning bound. Impossibly powerful hands seized Luke's shoulders as Vastor lifted him like a doll, and shook him and roared rage and bloodlust into his face, and there was nothing human left in Vastor's eyes. He sank his teeth into Luke's throat, and bit down.
[…]
He almost went face-first into the hull armor but managed to turn his crash into a clumsy somersault that left him flat on his back, dazed and gasping and staring up at the business end of his blaster. Which was in Luke's hand.
Luke said, "Didn't I tell you to go?"
While Han was still blankly mumbling, "Yow. Nice shooting. I think," the enormous Vastor-thing moaned like someone in terrible pain or fear or both. One huge hand slammed against Luke's chest, and for all Han could tell, it was like Vastor was the one in trouble and trying desperately to escape. An instant later, Vastor ripped his mouth free of Luke's neck-and his mouth was full of those black crystal hairs. The wound in Luke's neck wasn't bleeding, it was sprouting a thatch of that same blackly glistening fur that was writhing and twisting and growing like it was alive. Vastor gasped like a drowning man and yanked his other hand off Luke's arm, and before Han could manage even a faint guess as to what was actually going on, Vastor whirled, took four or five running steps for momentum, and made a great big flying leap right off the ship.


Luke tanks Vastor’s attack casually (Luke wasn’t trying to kill him).

So we have several lines of scaling to put Vader far above Vastor and you would have to resort to rather convoluted mental gymnastics to ignore them all.

It’s clear that Vastor >> Mace Windu in power:


Mace stood motionless except for the heaving of his chest. He knew already he could not match Vastor for raw power.

--Shatterpoint


Vastor was younger, stronger, faster, and immensely more powerful, and he wielded weapons that could not be harmed by the Jedi blade.
--Shatterpoint


Now Mace Windu loses the first fight to Vastor but wins the second, which hardly contradicts the ranking of their respective Force power given that Vastor is essentially untrained while Mace Windu is one of the most highly trained warriors of all time - and, as we’ll see, Mace doesn’t even win conventionally.

So, in power:

Vader >>> Kar Vastor >> (TCW) Mace Windu

Mace Windu, meanwhile, is Legends-canon above all Jedi to his time sans Yoda as of TPM:

Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.

--The Official Star Wars Fact File #11


Given that Revan is listed in the dramatis personae of the Revan novel as a Jedi Master, we know that:

Vader >>> Kar Vastor >> TCW Mace Windu > Revan

In power.

Continued below.


__________________

Luke Skywalker. A simple farmboy – became powerful. Now... beyond powerful.

Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 02:03 PM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

That alone is an incredibly strong argument in Vader’s favor given the huge role that Force power plays in combat – but we can also extrapolate a direct combative scaling. To do this, we can look at the second fight between Mace Windu and Kar Vastor. A lot of people just assume that Mace won easily because of quotes like this:

Vastor's mighty arms spasmed and dropped limply to his sides. "This is called Vaapad, Kar." A fierce light burned in Mace's eyes. "How many arms do you see?"
- Source : Shatterpoint

Which is kind of silly given that this happens in the first fight when Mace gets some hits in but loses. Yeah Windu can pull off these speed feats with vaapad, which Windu has developed tremendously since the TPM quote that scales him above Revan (that’s a central plot point of multiple Mace storylines), but it isn’t even enough for him to win.

Indeed, Windu ends up winning largely through the use of weaponry and some clever tactics. He recognizes he can’t beat Vastor in a straight-up brawl:

Mace sagged. "Do you have a move to make? I'm too tired for this." Sleep when you're dead, Vastor snarled, and leaped. Ultrachrome flashed.

Mace could have met him, blade to shields, but instead he slipped aside.

He had no intention of fighting this man. Not here and now. Not anywhere. Not ever.


Instead, he outwits Vastor:

But the fact that his lightsaber couldn't hurt those shields didn't make them invulnerable.
As Vastor gathered himself to spring again, Mace reached into the Force. The vibroshield stuck into the wall above Nick's head squealed against the bunker's armor as it came to life and pulled itself free and streaked like a missile toward Vastor's back.

Vastor's incredible reflexes whirled him, and those same reflexes snapped his shields in front of his chest in plenty of time to block- But they didn't actually block anything.

There was a reason why, when Vastor's shields met to make that metallic howl, he always brought them together back-to-back, instead of edge-to-edge.

The flying shield's vibrating edge sheared through both Vastor's shields, through both his wrists, and buried itself in the bone of his chest, stopping less than a centimeter short of his heart.

Vastor blinked astonishment at Mace as though the Jedi Master had betrayed him.


So Mace Windu manages to outsmart Vastor, but wouldn’t win a head on confrontation. How would Vader fare against Vastor? Well, given that Vader is “far more powerful” than him and obviously better trained, and Nick thinks Vader would win easily, he’d crush him – Mace Windu struggles because he has to compensate for a power handicap, but Vader would have “far more” power and some significant advantage in skill on top of it so Vastor has no area to compensate.

So it’s clear from this that, in combat:

Vader >>> TCW Mace Windu > Revan.

My putting Windu above Revan in combat stems not only from his aforementioned greater power but also his greater swordsmanship:

Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

Source: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48


So Jedi Dooku >= Revan as a duelist, but lesser than TPM Mace. Given that Mace scales above Revan as both as duelist and a Force user, it seems pretty clear that he’s a better combatant.

This presents a clear line of scaling to demonstrate that pre-prime Vader is more powerful than the Revan we see at the beginning of the Revan novel by a rather large margin. And frankly if you’re going to argue that Revan grows in power, if he does at all, to a greater extent than Vader does, you’ll have a lot of work on your hands.



Vader has vastly greater raw power than Revan

Palpatine himself thinks that even after Mustafar, Vader’s potential still rivals his own:

More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his Mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking – the power of life over death. There would be no need to fear Vader.

--Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


Note that the point isn’t to dispute whether Vader’s potential exactly matches Sidious’s – it’s clearly very close. By comparison, however, there’s no indication that Revan on his natural power ever could’ve matched Vitiate’s.

We get another indication of Vader’s vast reserves of Force energy from comparing him with Kar Vastor as we did earlier. Kar Vastor is described by Mace Windu as rivaling Yoda in raw power:

I could not answer; Vastor has power on the scale of Master Yoda, or young Anakin Skywalker.

--Shatterpoint


Note that this isn’t even a matter of potential because there’s no way Vastor rivals Anakin in that, so it has to be “raw” power in the sense of still being Force reserves one can draw on. Clearly Vastor could not defeat Yoda in a fight, but he may very well have comparable reserves of the Force to use, and Vader is far beyond him.

Advantage: Vader.

Given that Vader has had decades of training under both the Jedi and Palpatine, or about as much as Revan has had by the Revan novel, and more potential, it seems pretty clear that he’s going to be more powerful.



Vader grows far more powerful over time

All of this analysis also comes on top of the fact that Vader is more powerful in RotJ than he’s ever been:

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.
-- Return Of The Jedi


This is after having grown significantly from ANH to ESB:

Within the armed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.
-- Insider #62


Given that Vader’s potential is Sidious-tier, it isn’t too difficult to imagine that Vader can grow massively even in short timespans. So all of the scaling I am doing should constitute a lower bound for Vader’s abilities. More accurately the case you’ve read above translates to:

Peak Vader >>>> TFU Vader >>> Dark Times Vader >>> TCW Mace Windu > Revan

This also functions as a rebuttal to lowballing attempts, because RotJ Vader is explicitly above any previous showings, including his best ones.

It seems clear, therefore, that Vader has across-the-board advantages over Revan in environmental feats, multiple lines of powerscaling, raw power, and other areas I haven’t even gotten into in this opener like technical skill. Prime Vader is truly a frighteningly powerful beast, and while Revan is certainly no weakling, the overwhelming preponderance of evidence clearly points towards him not being on the same level.


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Last edited by The Ellimist on Jan 28th, 2018 at 02:09 PM

Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 02:07 PM
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Stigma
Freedom Fighter

Registered: Jul 2013
Location: Poland


 

Great job. thumb up


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Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 02:11 PM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

Thanks smile


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Azronger
Azronger Reborn

Registered: Jun 2016
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TenebrousWay
God Tier Vaylin

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Good post. smile


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Old Post Jan 28th, 2018 02:25 PM
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