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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Star Wars databook contradiction: Ventress, TFA Kylo Ren, ESB Luke, Grand Inquisitor


Star Wars databook contradiction: Ventress, TFA Kylo Ren, ESB Luke, Grand Inquisitor
Started by: banana3

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banana3
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Star Wars databook contradiction: Ventress, TFA Kylo Ren, ESB Luke, Grand Inquisitor

This is for canon.

So we're likely all aware of the top 5 red lightsaber tier list in a guidebook (forgot the name): https://i.imgur.com/igTfMZV.jpg
As you can see, Kylo Ren is pictured. So Asajj Ventress > Kylo Ren.

In the TFA Head-to-Head guidebook, it tells us TFA Kylo Ren > ESB Luke: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/up...85305-73994.jpg

There is a quote where Asajj Ventress is slightly above the Grand Inquisitor. Idk from where exactly though.


So far we have
Asajj Ventress >= Grand Inquisitor > TFA Kylo Ren > ESB Luke
Or
Asajj Ventress >= Grand Inquisitor = TFA Kylo Ren > ESB Luke

Now this would all be great if it wasn't for the 6th issue of the Star Wars comic (2020 series). There we have a post-ESB Luke beat the Grand Inquisitor. The GI even goes as far as to say Luke is "Strong. So Strong". The GI does land a kick on him though.

This would only make sense if Luke rapidly grew after the movie to be significantly above Ventress after being below her during ESB. I suppose that makes sense with RotJ though.

Thoughts?


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Last edited by banana3 on Apr 17th, 2022 at 11:05 PM

Old Post Apr 17th, 2022 11:00 PM
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Underachiever59
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I figure all four characters are pretty close. The quote you provided of TFA Kylo Ren states that he would have been injured by ESB Luke. "Despite injuries, Kylo is willing to press his adventage and defeat his enemy." So the gap between TFA Kylo Ren and ESB Luke is nearly non-existent. Similarly, Filoni's quote stated that the very best inquisitor should be comparable to Ventress, but Ventress should still be more powerful.


As for Luke's victory over the Grand Inquisitor, that's almost entirely due to Luke's strength in the Force, not his skill as a lightsaber duelist. He was pressuring the Inquisitor early on until the GI whipped out his second blade, at which point Luke was stuck on the defensive for the rest of the fight. It wasn't until Luke used a powerful Force push that completely staggered the Inquisitor that Luke actually won. The ranking of "red lightsaber wielders" was explicitly about how skilled the characters were as duelists, not accounting for their respective power in the Force.

So, purely as lightsaber duelists, I'd say it should look something like:

Asajj Ventress>Grand Inquisitor>TFA Kylo Ren>ESB Luke

All by a relatively small margin. But once you factor in ability with the Force?

TFA Kylo Ren>ESB Luke>Asajj Ventress>Grand Inquisitor

TFA Kylo Ren still has roughly the same Force potential as Luke, and similar showings. Both have displayed staggering power and magnitude. Asajj Ventress, while more skilled with a lightsaber than TFA Kylo Ren or ESB Luke, isn't as powerful as either of them. Even though she could probably beat them purely saber-to-saber, the moment Ren or Luke bust out even a simple Force push, the battle is pretty much over the same way Luke beat the Grand Inquisitor.

Old Post Apr 18th, 2022 12:23 AM
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banana3
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Hmm that's a good point, especially since the list only mentions lightsabers in their quick one sentence summaries. No mention of force powers

I know people have talked about Matt Martin or someone acknowledging it? Has anyone ever said it was purely about lightsaber dueling only? No force power?


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Old Post Apr 18th, 2022 04:32 PM
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Eli Vanto
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It's only referring to lightsaber skill.

For example the list has Vader above Sidious, but we know that if Sidious is free to use any force powers at all, he's going to rape Vader with ease. Therefore the list is only factoring in technical saber skills and nothing else. Same can be said (to a lesser degree) about Maul being placed above Dooku.


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Old Post Apr 18th, 2022 04:39 PM
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Total Warrior
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Just for any other franchise, databooks are trash, full of contradictions and inaccuracies. This doesn't only happen in SW, but really in most other cases as well. That's because the people who write this stuff have less knowledge on star wars than any of us, and in general they don't really care about consistency since they just need to sell and earn money. They're fun to read, but rather than trying to make sense out of it you should just take it with a grain of salt. Actual feats>>>in universe hype>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything else


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Old Post Apr 18th, 2022 09:04 PM
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xPRIMEx
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That book was released several months before TFA came out thatís why Kylo isnít on the list.

Old Post Apr 18th, 2022 10:48 PM
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Darth Thor
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Honestly id ignore the list. Its simply outdated.

Doubt the author knew much about Kylos ability, or just how ridiculously powerful canon would make Sidious later on.

And hey id love for it to be canon that Maul beats Dooku in a pure saber duel, or that Vader beats Sidious, but I just dont feel like that list is a reliable source.

Old Post Apr 18th, 2022 11:15 PM
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banana3
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Eli Vanto
It's only referring to lightsaber skill.

For example the list has Vader above Sidious, but we know that if Sidious is free to use any force powers at all, he's going to rape Vader with ease. Therefore the list is only factoring in technical saber skills and nothing else. Same can be said (to a lesser degree) about Maul being placed above Dooku.
im not sure how sidious rapes vader in canon. Filoni says Ahsoka can match Vader AND Palpatine blow for blow. It's extreme diff either way
quote: (post)
Originally posted by xPRIMEx
That book was released several months before TFA came out thatís why Kylo isnít on the list.
That would definitely fix things hmm
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Honestly id ignore the list. Its simply outdated.

Doubt the author knew much about Kylos ability, or just how ridiculously powerful canon would make Sidious later on.

And hey id love for it to be canon that Maul beats Dooku in a pure saber duel, or that Vader beats Sidious, but I just dont feel like that list is a reliable source.
Maul in rebels seems to be close to ahsoka, who fought vader much better than dooku did against anakin


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Old Post Apr 22nd, 2022 09:03 PM
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Eli Vanto
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by banana3
im not sure how sidious rapes vader in canon. Filoni says Ahsoka can match Vader AND Palpatine blow for blow. It's extreme diff either way
Sidious already raped Vader in new canon. With very little effort.

This happened in the comics set shortly after ESB.


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Old Post Apr 23rd, 2022 11:37 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by banana3
Maul in rebels seems to be close to ahsoka, who fought vader much better than dooku did against anakin



Did she? Lets not forget Dooku got a severe lick in on Anakin before his defeat. Whereas the only time Ahsoka got one over Vader was when she rushed at him from behind.

Old Post Apr 23rd, 2022 04:24 PM
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banana3
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Well for one, Ahsoka didn't die and is stated to be able to fight Vader blow for blow. And Vader > Anakin in canon


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Old Post Apr 23rd, 2022 06:30 PM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by banana3
Well for one, Ahsoka didn't die and is stated to be able to fight Vader blow for blow. And Vader > Anakin in canon



She didnt die because Round 1 Vader left her to go after the Sith Holocron. Round 2 Ezra saved her through a magical portal.

Yeah Vader is supposedly above ROTS Anakin but thats not quantifiable. In fact this is all a very subjective analysis.

Would be like me saying Dooku did better against Yoda and Mace than Ahsoka did against Vader.

Old Post Apr 24th, 2022 10:36 AM
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banana3
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Those are weaker yodas and windus tho


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Old Post May 28th, 2022 10:35 PM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by banana3
Those are weaker yodas and windus tho



In Canon ?

Doubt there was much difference.

Old Post May 30th, 2022 10:32 PM
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banana3
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
In Canon ?

Doubt there was much difference.


If I remember correctly, TCW Season 4 Anakin beat Dooku. So we at least have:

Rots dooku >>> s4 Anakin > s4 dooku > aotc dooku >>> aot anakin


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Old Post Jun 9th, 2022 08:29 PM
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Darth Thor
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^ Anakin never beat Dooku until ROTS.

Old Post Jun 9th, 2022 08:39 PM
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xPRIMEx
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Sidious already raped Vader in new canon. With very little effort.

This happened in the comics set shortly after ESB.

That was a weakened Vader. Sidious even said so himself.

Old Post Jun 14th, 2022 03:52 PM
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xPRIMEx
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Remember when Vader ragdolled Sidious right after Mustafar? The two are comparable power wise. There are many feats/statements that prove Vader rivals Sidious. Some even call him the most powerful Sith.

Old Post Jun 14th, 2022 03:56 PM
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Total Warrior
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Vader never ragdolled Sidious wtf you literally just made it up


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Old Post Jun 14th, 2022 06:59 PM
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xPRIMEx
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...Yes he did. In the first issue of the Charles Soule Vader comics.

Last edited by xPRIMEx on Jun 16th, 2022 at 04:24 PM

Old Post Jun 16th, 2022 04:22 PM
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