So hip hop isn't really music then. Cause as you said before... in music, the music is the host, the lyrics are secondary. That's not hip hop. So that would make hip hop what... literature?
Exactly, if you wanna be technical, Hip Hop has more in common with spoken word than music. Hip Hop isn't derived from music. It wasn't started because of music. It was started through rhyming. Because remember back in the day how everyone mostly accused Rock of being guys screaming? That was a common misconception before it became ok to like Rock. If someone came out and said "Hip Hop is just guys speaking", that wouldn't be far from the truth.
Hip Hop is derived from the spoken word, it's more spoken word than it is music. Because an MC is judged on how well he crafts words, not how well he makes music. Hip Hop is more a culture of different parts than it is a genre. From graffiti artists, b-boys, rhymers, dj's etc. It's not a band making music. It's a culture with music in it. It's a genre WITH music in it, but the only reason it's lyrics are more at the forefront is because they make secondary music. There isn't a band of accomplished musicians making great music. It's a guy making a beat. It's emotionless music, against an MC rhyming words. Perfect example being Zack De La Rocha, as great an MC and lyricist as he was, he will never be equal to Tom, Tim and Brad. They produced the rage, he defined the rage. If Zack made a Hip Hop album, his lyrics would undoubtedly be the forefront, not the music.
The point you made was that in other vocal mediums, music isn't as prominent. That's true, it doesn't mean that lyrics are equal to music, in music. That's just illogical. As Victor Von Doom pointed out. The fact that instrumentals exist prove that lyrics aren't intrinsic to music. The fact that bands like Godspeed (20 minute lyricless songs per album) exist, proves that. They're more emotive than any Hip Hop album.
So to compare, an MC on stage freestyling (no music). A band on stage playing (no vocals). The music is always going to be more emotional. It's simple logic to know that lyrics aren't as important to music, as music.
First, hip hop did not start out as spoken word with no DJ. It actually started out as DJing with no spoken word, then over time the concept of emceeing gradually grew. When you say it derived from spoken word that's not really true..
Second, I don't think there's such thing as "emotionless" music cause I think that all music is derived from emotion in one way or another, and so is poetry so even if you don't consider hip hop music, it still isn't emotionless.
I don't think emotion is really something you can argue in a matter of fact manner. I mean you may feel more emotion than I do when listening to certain songs, and vice versa. It's really not fair to say "Godspeed albums are more emotional than any hip hop album" as if it's "simple logic" because it's more of a matter of personal preference. MC's don't rap for the hell of it and producers don't either.. they all have SOME sort of emotion in them that drives them to make their music in the first place, and to say "music A is more emotional than music B, it's just simple logic" really doesn't hold much water.
It wasn't long at all before the whole base shifted though. You're making the wrong point. Hip Hop's base shifted, music and lyrics have never competed. At first it was very musical with people like Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, Cold Crush Bros etc. Musically very good, lyrically ok. Then it SHIFTED. They didn't ever compete. The genre just became more about the lyrics than the music. People decided that lyrics was where they wanted to express things, not with music. That doesn't mean lyrics are as important to music, as music. It means they chose to emphasise the lyrics.
A beat from a computer is considerably less emotive than a man playing a guitar solo, or a drum solo. Flicking switches to mimic those sounds isn't as emotional as actually creating them.
I never said music A was better than music B, you're going off somewhere else.
Regardless of what medium is at the forefront, lyrics aren't equally important to music as the music...to say so is just stupid and illogical. MUSIC is more important to MUSIC than words. There's not much to debate there. I'm not saying someone can PREFER lyrics, as Hip Hop MCs and fans generally do, but to say they are equal to music, in music, is not subjective. I never said any band being better was simple logic, I said it's simple logical deduction to know that music is more important to music than lyrics.
Very good musically in what sense? Rap production/DJing today is about ten times better than it was back in the days of GM Flash and Kool Herc, IMO. Good modern day hip hop beats are certainly more complex and layered then they were back in those days. Lyricism today is also more complex. Back then it didn't go much further than "throw your hands in the air, and wave them like you just don't care." As a whole, hip hop production and lyricism evolved simultaneously. They didn't switch roles, it just turns out lyricism ended up evolving more because there's more you can do with the English language than there is with a turntable.
Well you're basically just stating what you said the first time. Less emotive says who? I'm not saying I think hip hop beats are more emotional or of equal emotion to rock instrumentals, I'm just saying that you're choosing something entirely subjective and personal (emotion) and trying to use it to prove a point objectively. Emotion is in the eye of the beholder.. people can find emotion in practically anything.
I never used the word better either, I used the same term you did, "emotional."
Last edited by Afro Cheese on Oct 1st, 2005 at 05:37 PM
I prefer a lot of the older Hip Hop in terms of music, though there are a few producers today I like. I can't really get around the fact that it's just someone making a beat, really. It takes away from my personal listening experience.
Exactly, they shifted the focal point. Lyrics didn't take over forcefully because they were better.
Well you're agreeing with me, so you're arguing for argument's sake. Anyone, in time, can become a reasonably good Hip Hop producer because all it takes is a program and inspiration. Not anyone can make great guitar music or great drum music. A great, real instrumental. I say it's more evocative and more emotional because it actually takes effort and talent, more than producing.
I never said it matter of factly. You misinterpreted it. I personally find - to use my example - Godspeed's music much more evocative and emotional because it's people playing instrumental songs, 20 minutes or more in length. Not 4 minutes of computer generated music. That's me.
My only argument was that once again, people should stop confusing being a fan of lyrics and prefering them, with the lyrics actually being equal.
sweet, first time i can remember coming into this thread.. and you're mentioning Godspeed You! Black Emporer!
i appreciate the effort it takes to make lyrics for rap... but other than that, it's just manufactured beats. and im not as impressed with that as with a proper band.
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Computer generated beats are not emotional... POETRY is. Hip hop is poetry over a beat. Therefore to say that hip hop is an emotionless entity is ridiculous.
Let's go back to where I mentioned that computer generated beats aren't emotional.
Let's also try to find where I said Hip Hop isn't emotional. Because I swear I said (aka I did) that the music was emotionless, not the rhyming or poetry involved. But that's me, I can't see where I called Hip Hop emotionless, maybe you can. If you can, show me where please.
Lyrics may or may not have taken over because they were better, but either way they are obviously essential to hip hop. So that would mean (by your logic) that it's not music. But then again.. without the beat or flow it's not hip hop, so it can't really be considered literature either.
I'm not agreeing with you.. where'd you get that idea?
Isn't it fair to say that anyone in time can become a skilled guitarist? Playing an instrument is a skill that you can develop, not a god-given talent like singing, so anyone with enough determination can become a skilled musician. Whether or not they can make good music is where emotion and songwriting come in, and is entirely a matter of opinion. So yeah anyone can become a skilled DJ or producer with time.. but can they make good beats one they know their way around the turntable? That's where creativity comes in hand. Crate digging, finding the perfect part of a song to distort or flip in some way to become part of an entirely new beat.. it's not just a learned skill, it's something that takes a great understanding of music, emceeing and something that takes flat out talent.
Well yeah if that's your preference then that's your preference.. I thought you were saying it to prove something about hip hop. My bad.
Well you've already stated that lyrics are more important in hip hop so right now I'm not discussing how important lyrics are in rock music cause we've been over this, I was just discussing where this logic that in music the instrumentals are always the most essential part leaves hip hop. Like I said earlier, it would appear that you can't really rule it as music or as literature.. so what is it, an artform in itself?
What do you mean by my logic? My only argument was that lyrics, regardless of whether they take the forefront now and then or not, are not more important to music than music itself. That much is just sheer logic.
I was saying that hip hop beats were not more emotional than rock. That's subjective because it depends what you prefer, but someone standing there playing a guitar with a lot of emotion Vs a guy at a computer? It's academic.
No, not everyone can become Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Eddie Van Halen or Hendrix. If I sat down with Stoupe, Dre etc...I could actually become as good because all they do (besides Dre who plays piano, as do I) is arrange. You don't need skill to press buttons and flick switches. If Dre taught me producing for 5 years, and Vai taught me for 5 years on guitar, I could become Dre. I couldn't become anything close to Vai because it takes talent and actual given ability to become a transcendtal instrumental player. Sure you can learn, but no amount of learning will make you Hendrix, because he was born with that talent. Dre wasn't born with a talent for producing.
That's hardly on par with someone being a guitar, drums or bass genius. I'm sorry but it's not. You have to make notes, you have to make the music. DJing is creativity with what's there. It's manipulative creation, not creative creation.
No, I love hip hop. Real hip hop and I'm not defending rock over it. I'm a music fan. I'm just making my original point.
Hip hop is a music genre. It's a different music genre where vocals are the forefront with the lyrics. That's CHOSEN, it's not forced. Hip hop is the exception to the lyrics rule because the music isn't made to carry the emotion in hip hop, the vocals and delivery is where it is. But, when you look at bands who make hip hop also, Candiria for example, you can clearly see that the lyrics have then taken a back seat.
Candiria collaborate with some great MCs for some hip hop flavoured tracks. Due to the fact that it's not a producer giving them a beat, but a talented band making it, the music pushes itself back upfront and becomes what's important.
The reason hip hop is the exception to the lyrics rule is because people who PREFER lyrics choose to push that and not use music to it's fullest. Rage made a lot of hip hop tracks on Renegades. I don't listen to their cover of I'm Housin' and get the impression that the lyrics are still as focal as they were when EPMD did it, purely because it's a band bringing the music and the music automatically takes the show.
My only argument, to repeat, was that music is always more important where it's used to it's fullest extent. Which is, funnily enough, everywhere else besides hip hop.
Like I said you may be able to work a turntable as good as them, I'm not sure how long it'd take but there's no guaranteeing you'd be able to make a decent beat. That's where your undermining the talent that goes along with producing. If it was just "anyone who practices can be like RZA or Stoupe" then we'd have a million and one RZA's and Stoupes. Now I'm not saying that it takes the same amount of skill to master a turntable as it does a guitar, cause that's just stupid. What I'm saying is that you're making it sound as if hip hop producers are just guys with jobs who are only good at what they do because of practice and that anybody could replace them with the proper training. I disagree, obviously.
Well creativity isn't really something you can compare like skill.. it's more of a "in the eye of the beholder." I mean yes rock music is a more "from scratch" type of music but they all have something to start with.. music theory. There's already a system of playing set up and they have to learn that system and then find ways to use it to make a song.. it's still "manipulative creation" in a way, just not to the same extent as hip hop.
I think that pretty much answers what I was asking, and is a good point. Hip hop beats are only created so the rapper has something to flow to.. so they aren't really music to it's fullest potential, cause if you tried to listen to a highly technical rapper like GZA over a highly technical rock instrumental, the instrumentals would take over and the vocals would just become an annoyance cause there would be too much going on at once.
We don't have a million RZA's or Stoupe's, you're right. However, the number of instrumentalists that are great beyond any training is much lower than that of the producers who are unable to be copied. If you tried hard enough for long enough you could emulate Stoupe, not so much in creative talent but end product. Purely because what he's doing doesn't require mastery of anything. Just familiarity. It's all there for you. You don't have to work on how to play, dexterity or anything. You work with programs. Like someone who's great on photoshop. I wouldn't be able to be as good as Lana is without practising for a very very long time and even then it'd only be imitating. I could do it though, I couldn't do that with Hendrix.
It's not is it? Because they go into a room with many different ideas and use their talent, skill and ability (both creative and technical) to make a song. They don't go into a room with lots of pre set sounds and make a beat.
Precisely.
Although when it does work eg: Zack rapping over Rage's music, the music is still the focal point, the more important part.
The only reason lyrics are more important in hip hop is because the music is actually put on the back burner.
It's not all programs though, being a DJ does take a certain amount of skill but besides that I agree with what you said.
But they still are following a basic structure that's already been set up for them. I'm not demeaning their creativity, but they are still using what's already been done to make a song for the most part. They don't just pick up a guitar and and see which notes sound good next to each other, we already know which notes go together thanks to scales and whatnot.
Well good producers don't just go into a room full of pre-set sounds.. they listen to music and recognize one little piece of a song that might sound good as part of a hip hop beat. That's where the real creativity comes in, IMO. And by this logic, it's also less creative to be a composer? I'm not comparing DJing/producing to composing as far as talent or understanding of music, so don't confuse what I'm saying with that. I'm just saying that really it's the same basic concept. Arranging a song of other people's playing.
Zack's lyrics are far from highly technical.. and the music of Rage Against the Machine is molded so he can rap over it, too. It's noticeably less complex than say Tool or Dream Theatre as a result of this.
You're wrong, of course that's what that do. How do you think innovation happens? What a random claim. They don't just pick up a guitar and see which notes sound good because they already know. I just don't know where you got that.
Composers don't do that. A composers job is to orchestrate and direct a group of musicians playing instruments, keeping time and rhythm. Not sitting at a computer playing tetris with samples. "Hmm that would fit there, if I put it this way it'll sound good."
Rage didn't make their music so Zack could rap to it, Zack could rap to it anyway. It's less complex because they don't need to be. Tom Morello could easily pull off some of the greatest technical playing ever. That's besides the point though.
I'm not saying there's no innovation involved but they already have a basic structure to work off.. unless we're talking jazz music there are "right" notes and "wrong" notes which all depends on which key they are playing in and all that good stuff. They create a song/melody through music theory and knowing their way around their instrument, not just out of thin air. My point was that they do have something to work with.. in a way what they do is manipulative and in other ways it's creative. Hip hop is pretty much completely manipulative.
Ok my bad but still what I meant is people who arrange the music. It does take talent.. it's not just a developed technique.
Regardless of why it's less complex, the fact that it is less complex still stands. Zack wouldn't be able to rap to it if it wasn't, at least not with the stability he did on RATM.
You're making such a pointless issue here. What are you talking about? You mean that there are notes that exist, which they already know how to play? Well of course. Without talent, those notes, scales and such mean nothing at all. Give a guitar to some random person and those notes mean nothing. Even if you try teaching them, they won't be able to play it right away. You put someone infront of logic, cubase, pro tools or whatever and they can learn it via pressing buttons and arranging samples. Saying "They know notes" isn't aiding your point. Comparing producers and instrument players is ridiculous.
Developed technique? By that you mean taking time to learn it? Which is what I've been saying.
Yes...they didn't cater to him purposefully though.
Ok I'll try my best to explain what I'm arguing here in a nutshell. You earlier stated that while hip hop production is manipulative creation, rock is creative creation. My only point was that all musicians do their fair share of manipulating, just not to the same obvious extent as hip hop producers. While rockers do have a more "from scratch" method of making music than hip hop producers, that doesn't mean their creativity doesn't involve manipulation.. Not just that "notes exist," that music theory has basically laid out the ground rules to developing melodies and writing songs. It is their job as artists to manipulate this system to create something new and original.
I said it's NOT just a developed technique. That's part of it, but on top of that it does require talent.
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Oct 1st, 2005 05:02 AM
