Basing on your chose of words (dwarfs?) I can already tell you're too much of a juggernaut fanboy. you can argue that juggernaut MAYBE stronger than the hulk, but he certainly does not dwarf hulk's strength. If he dwarfed both hulk's and thor's strength then he should have been able to mop the floor with them (like he did with venom). but that did not happen, especially with the hulk. so do not tell me that he dwarfs the hulk.
understood. my wording clashed with your liking. juggernaut's base strength is higher than either of them in my opinion though. hopefully you will like how i have worded it. even if you dont' agree you have no proof in debunking what i say.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by FrothByte
[B]Basing on your chose of words (dwarfs?) I can already tell you're too much of a juggernaut fanboy.
Agreed...Hulk is stronger than Juggs even a his base strength (except for grey hulk) the one time Jugy beat Hulk ( in the rainforest) it was the element of surprise that got him...otherwise there would be no story to write about...where the Hulk raped both juggy and the Avengers...everytime hulk has fought Juggy he won...even back in the seventies...i wasnt born at the time, but i own the issue and the Rhino did a better job in his first appearance against the Hulk...the Hulk has performed countless more impressive feats of strength....Jugs performs feats of endurance and durability...when was the last time the hulk wasnt strong enough to do something?...one time he said he would have to get a lot madder to fight THE SHAPER OF WORLDS, maybe in the top 5 most powerful characters in the marvel universe...
another thing...stop bringing up War Hulk....it was poorly written...an excuse to show apoc and hulk in the same issue...being War, the Hulk had no improvements in strength....however, he was brainwashed and able to channel his energy through a sword...if War Hulk was a different character, can anyone tell me when did he stop being WAR?...he tore out some implants and jumped away...r u telling me archangel or Caliban can tear out some implants and resort to their old selves?...no...the only difference in the Hulk and War is their personalities...apoc did not increase his strength...just made him meaner...Apoc is very smart...his real intentions were to attack the NWO...using the sword he knew Jugs and Absorbing man would recover...he planed for the contigency, like something Doctor Doom would do....Any time Hulk is green he can beat Juggy...the only Hulk with further increased strength is Mindless Hulk...he would beat juggy, demonstrated by his fight with onslought...r u familiar with Dark Hulk...he is far stronger than any hulk manifestation, juggy would be no match.
considering that even rhino was downed in 2 punches by a weakened juggernaut i'd have to say you were wrong. why if hulk is stronger, does marvel state that juggernaut's strength rivals his??? why would they say that if clearly hulk would be at a base level strength higher than juggernaut?? juggernaut has leveled a sky scraper with a single punch. downed thing and rhino rather quickly, both proving 2 be hulks equal for a while. the 4 times that hulk and juggernaut met, hulk 172, no victor, battle too short and indecisive. i dunno how you get hulk beats him out of that. hulk 402, juggernaut in street clothes sends "smart hulk" flying through the rain forest. on the first panel. hulk wondered who he was. part of the way through the issue he does start fighting back. but it's too late. red skull literally has to order juggernaut to stop fighting, so he doesn't kill him. hulk 404, hulk hits juggernaut twice (removing his helmet coincidentally) and breaks free from his mind control. a phsicic backlash knocks juggernaut unconscious. and again in hulk 457 the battle. hulk is upgraded by celestial tech, which allows him to harness energy from 2 universes. main stream marvel and the heroes reborn. upgraded in everyway, simply by thinking it could send an unlimited supply of energy to any part of his body, even to his sword. he still had trouble with juggernaut in this upgraded form. which is by far the most POWERFUL version of hulk. i'd say juggernaut's base strength stands higher than hulks. so i guess you are wrong about hulk winning every fight. because 1, he didn't defeat juggernaut in 172, jean grey and xavier did. in 402 juggernaut soundly thrashed hulk. in 404, if he hadn't been mind controlled by metallo, juggernaut would have never been rendered unconscious. and in 457, had he not been upgraded in every way, he wouldn't have fared as good as he did. so please tell me how u get hulk winning every time.
"and breaks free from his mind control. a psionis backlash knocks juggernaut unconscious"..."in 404, if he hadn't been mind controlled by metallo, juggernaut would have never been rendered unconscious."...Juggy knocked out by some backlash...so does that mean a P*ssy like metallo was involved in juggy's defeat?....doesnt sound too impressive...i will stand by my comments about war hulk, im not going to repeat myself, his strength was not upgraded, if it was, then why wasnt it permanent, u did not respond to my comments at all (as usual)....u r using too much of ur imagination and too much rhetoric to build up Juggy, just talk about the facts juggefan be objective...if u dont see a pattern of the Hulk beating juggernaut, then u r being bias..."Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
-MLK
This is what really happened.
The Incredible Hulk #404: The Hulk slaps his hands together and creates a shock wave that blows the Avengers back. The Juggernaut is just about to go into them more when the Red Skull radios him and tells him to give the Avengers an option to surrender and leave. The Juggernaut, against his better judgement, gives the Avengers the option but when they refuse, the Juggernaut orders the Hulk on them. The Hulk, in his mind, sees the Juggernaut as his father and the Avengers as different ages of Bruce Banner. They continue to fight the Avengers as a team until the Juggernaut tells the Hulk he is dong a great job. That praise jolts the Hulk's mind for a second. Then some of the remaining Avengers attack again and knock the Hulk down for a second. The Juggernaut gives his hand out to the Hulk and says that nothing can stop them if they stick together. The Hulk, his mind going back to when his father killed his mother, starts to crack a little bit. The Juggernaut just grabs the Hulk and throws him towards the Avengers. The Hulk, about to kill Crystal, hears the Juggernaut saying that he is the best. The Hulk, who is still seeing the Juggernaut as his father, finally cracks. The Hulk says that all those years, all he wanted was a little praise but all he gave was anger and being browbeat and now after all that time, he decides to give him praise. He punches the Juggernaut and hits his helmet off. The Hulk slowly starts to come out of it and knows that the Juggernaut is not his father and hits him. He screams to get out of his head. Mentallo tries to regain control but the Hulk rejects it and causes a massive psychic backlash that knocks everybody out, including the Juggernaut.
If Hulk can knock Juggernauts helmet off then have a huge psychic backlash and knock everyone out INCLUDING JUGGERNAUT! The why are you saying that Juggernaut is so freaking invincible, he got knocked out man, did you hear, her got his unstoppable ass knocked out. So stop saying that Juggernaut is stronger then the hulk, rivals Hulk in strength and The Hulk is beneath him. Because obviously The hulk had enough HULK RAGE, to overpower JUGGERNAUT and knock him unconcious. So just relax Juggyfan
I'am on a roll, heres another comic, I believe it is Hulk war about to kill Juggernaut.
The Incredible Hulk #457: The Juggernaut comes crashing down at the Hulk, dressed as War under Apocalypse's control, and hits him and keeps pushing him backwards. Until the Hulk manages to stop the Juggernaut from pushing him any further, then a coil from the Hulk's armor snakes out and wraps around the Juggernaut's leg. The Hulk throws him around and then sends him flying away. The Juggernaut lands in a mosque and as the Hulk comes leaping down onto him, the Juggernaut hits him and sends him flying across the street. The Juggernaut and Hulk continue to fight until the Hulk finally beats the Juggernaut down. The Hulk takes his sword and flips the Juggernaut's helmet off. He's about to behead the Juggernaut when the Absorbing Man comes crashing down on him. After the Hulk accidently sends Rick Jones flying into a brick wall and leaps away from the pain, the Juggernaut grabs his helmet. He and the Absorbing Man take the Hulk's sword which he left behind and agree to take Rick Jones and Janis to a hospital and then take the sword back to the New World Order.
This scenario Hulk had the opportunity to kill Juggernaut for good. But the writers didn't kill him to keep him around for jug fans like you!
well actually juggernaut is immortal. he should have died several times in the past, but survived. even being beheaded wouldn't have stopped him. so just because hulk say's he would have killed him, doesn't mean he would have been able too. also, it should be stated that war did not stop juggernaut with physical force. only negated the mystical energy with "extra dimensional" energy that he was drawing which manifested around him and juggernaut.
you make it sound like hulks power was what knocked juggernaut out in incredible hulk 404. it wasn't. it was the backlash that did it. not hulks punches. yes juggernaut was knocked out, but again it was by his one weakenss. psionics. not hulks power. so hulk didn't over power him. he just broke free of his mind control. which had nothing to do with juggernaut in the first place. if you look in any marvel handbook, they directly compare juggernaut's strength to hulks by name. they say he does RIVAL hulk. like i have already stated, had hulk not been mind controlled in 404 he would have never been able to knock juggernaut out.
as for hulk not being upgraded by the celestial tech?????????? it allowed him to harness the power from both universes. it allowed him with a though to send energy from both universes to any part of his body includint the sword. i have already addressed this issue. that is also how he overloaded absorbing man. it DID upgrade his strength. anybody who say's otherwise has obviously not read the mni series. this is all here-say information. the celestial tech DID upgrade WAR. just like it upgraded wolverine. just like it upgrade every other horseman of apocalypse. man, get yur facts straight. it doesn't matter if it was metallo, or some 7 year old kid down the street. if juggernaut is not wearing his helmet, his is just as susceptable to psionics as you and i. so yea, metallo did have something to do with juggernauts defeat. but it was still by his one weakness.
"only negated the mystical energy with "extra dimensional" energy that he was drawing which manifested around him and juggernaut."...am I missing something...does it explain this is some other issue...all i see is
the Hulk's Green aura. which he has lots of times when he is raging, over power Juggernaut's field...Juggy is not immortal, he has never had his head cut off...having his body stripped down to the bone by D'spayre is not cutting off the head...it has been demonstrated that juggernaut can be put down my neural disruption, so his primary nervous system is vulnerable...i dont know a better way to kill him than cutting of his head...oh and as far as another example of Juggy being scared...it mentions he is scared after he is stopped by War...again showing that whenever he might be up against a real challenge, he turns into a coward....do u still not see the pattern that the Hulk is above Juggy?
no he's not above juggy. he wasn't scared just dumbfounded. it was dimensional energy that haulted him. please read 450-457, not just 457. dr. strange, and apocalypse were both drawn to the disruption of power. that is the whole purpose behind apocalypse wanting a "non mutant", in the first place. he wanted to create something powerful enough to battle the celestials. he made hulk draw power from both universes. the aura was extra dimensional, hulk has since lost that "aura" so explain that one. juggernaut once challenged the likes of eternity to a fight. i doubt he's scared. juggernaut is susceptable to psionics yes, that is how you drop him. but physically severing his body isn't going to kill him. he is IMMORTAL so long as he's connected to the ruby's power.
Depends on which incarnation of the Hulk. The Professor would stomp Juggernaut, and possesses Banner's genius intellect.
WHAT!!!?? Show me where Juggernaut ever lifted anything remotely close to 50 billion tons? Yes Hulk can knock Juggernaut out. Superman is referenced as being invulnerable and Shazam knocked him the hell out. Because you can absorb punishment does not mean you are immune to it. Colossus knocked Juggernaut on his ass.
50 billion and he was not even raving mad, and he was SAVAGE Hulk, not Mindless.
LoL @ Juggernaut or Colossus being stronger than The Hulk. Jabberwocky.
Yeah right.
Is this more conjecture on your behalf or has this been stated somwhere?
first, proffessor hulk is the one that got stomped by juggernaut. savage hulk was also put on his ass in hulk 172, while juggernaut clearly stated his attacks were getting weaker, yet his were getting STRONGER. second colossus has never defeated juggernaut. twice juggernaut with a single punch has knocked colossus unconscious. so much for putting him on his ass. hulk didn't lift the 50 billion tons it was simply braced. a battle he was losing until reed richards talked trash to him to make him angry. being beheaded wouldn't have killed him, i and marvel have both stated several times that juggernaut is immortal. things that would have killed hulk, killed thor, killed hercules simply did not kill juggernaut. he is immortal. his body has been tormented far beyond anything the others can take. he IS immortal. while superman is extremely powerful and durable, he isn't completely physically invulnerable. juggernatu IS. he cannot sustain injury nor can he be pierced by physical means. you are aurgueing with FACTS. colossus in main stream marvel wasn't as powerful as the top dogs because he didn't even reach maturity yet. in the ultimate universe, it's a different story. he was stated at being in the 110 ton strength level, and took on thor and iron man simultaneously. both thor, and iron man have defeated hulk in the past. magneto even tried to pin him to the ground using magnetics, and failed to do so. colossus reaching maturity, is more durable, slightly stronger at base level, and is extremely capable of holding his own with hulk. atleast until hulk has sufficiently raged himself. so i think you need to address the issue differently. you say things like jabberwocky, when i present to you facts. yes juggernaut has had his body stripped in the past, and he does rival hulk's strength. if hulk was so much more powerful, why hasn't he laid waste to juggernaut yet?? they have met 4 times, and juggernaut is the only one with a sound victory, without being upgraded or depowered.
Prefaced by saying that I am an aggressive debater and hope I do not come across as if I am attacking anyone. Not attacking YOU, only attacking what you write.
That being said...
Intellectually? Not on your life.
Hulk wrestled off his helmet and Juggernaut was on the ground. Professor X, Cyclops, and Marvel Girl interrupted and defeated Hulk. Where did you get that Hulk was "put on his ass?" And referencing an old, OLD battle? Writers are now much more creative. That is akin to my referencing the Iceman in Uncanny #141 when the one in recent years is much more powerful, much more versatile.
Never said he did.
Negative. In the bar that was an accumulation of punches. "And this is what I call my Sunday Punch!" And WAIT. Colossus was NOT unconscious. When Colossus is unconscious he reverts back to human form. You are incorrect. Second one, not sure about.
Did he move it upward one inch? Two inches? If he did, he LIFTED it. And "losing?" He was never losing, he was getting TIRED. He said he did not know how much longer he could hold it, I believe. Spiderman even commented. Reed talked a little trash and the strength that follows his adrenaline surge enabled him to maintain his position.
That being said, Juggernaut has NEVER been close to "bracing" 50 billion tons...and Thor is generally regarded as being right behind Hulk, not Juggernaut.
And pardon - it was 150 billion tons.
Where did Marvel state this? Where is your proof?
Conjecture and opinion.
Agree, somewhat.
Wrong.
"Besides giving him vast superhuman strength, the mystical energy of Cyttorak gives the Juggernaut an >>>>>>>>>extraordinary degree of resistance to all forms of injury."
Extraordinary does not equal "IMMUNE."
Am aware that Ult Colosus was upgraded to Class 100. Where was he stated as being in Class 110 when Marvel always has used Class 100, and below that, in 10 ton increments?
Okay...? And Hulk stomped Thor's ass way more often. Will have to dig up Iron Man battles.
No, he is not slightly stronger at base level. More durable, agreed. Holding his own, yeah, until Hulk gets angry. Then it is lights out.
No it does not. It has been said that the upper limits of his strength are unknown, and it has been said that Hulk's is VIRTUALLY/POTENTIALLY limitless.
LoL @ "sound victory." Punching Hulk before he knew who Juggernaut was = "sound victory?" Notice you did not simply say "victory," because Hulk was handling Juggernaut's ass in #457. And I see no notice of Hulk STOPPING the "unstoppable" Juggernaut in the same issue.
"So: Nothing can stop the Juggernaut? Well here'er two things that can...my POWER...and your imminent beheading."
Last edited by Never on Apr 22nd, 2004 at 12:21 AM
but i said the sound victory was against "the smart hulk". he did fight back, he was just wondering where he had seen him before. but still a sound victory on juggernaut's part. second i said at normal levels of power. hulk was only war at the end of 456, till the end of 457. that is NOT his normal level of power. so hulk has never defeated juggernaut with his own power. where as juggernaut has defeated hulk with his. but colossus was stated in ultimate universe as 110 tons. i have no idea why it was 110 and not 100. but it is true. the only reason he never reached that level in main stream marvel is because he didn't get to reach maturity before he died. second, thor and hulk, most battles are inconclusive. even in a direct test of strength for 1 hour, hulk couldn't over power thor. iron man vs hulk. iron man at the last moment tapped as deep into his armor as he could, using all his energy into 1 arm, and punchd hulk, knocking him unconscious. the same ironman that defeated hulk, and the same thor that stalemated hulk on several occasions simultaneously failed to defeat colossus. you said that "colossus put juggernaut on his ass". when??? as for reverting back to his human form, that's what it states in his bio, but it's not true. he was completely limp in one hand, storm in the other, yet he was still in armored form. even in 183, he was unconscious, nightcrawler and wolverine had to dig him from under the debris. he was unconscious. as for hulk bracing the mountain, he never lifted it in the first place it was dropped on them. you want a feat of strength from juggernaut, using his full potential he was litterally ripping holes in dimensional barriers with his fist. he was so emmensly strong that even dimensional barriers were not stopping his strength. when has Hulk EVER been that powerful???? as for war stopping juggernaut i already told you, it wasn't strength............................................................................
you want to pitt war hulk against juggernaut, atleast do it fair. the upgraded version of juggernaut that was in excess of 50 ft tall, whom was litterally tearing down dimensional barriers. how do you think he would have fared agains juggernaut then? well first, that was actually juggernaut using his full potential. which is obtainable should he learn how to use his power. second war, if he hadn't been tampered with by apocalypse wouldn't have been able to reach his state of power. i think that is a wager that even war hulk would have lost.
Causes Incredible Shockwaves
Deflects the Nightcrawler's Sonics
Destroys A Huge Asteroid
Destroys Onslaught's Armor
Destroys The High Evolutionary's Armor
Grasps An Energy Bubble
Hulk Is Power Incarnate
Alcohol Has No Effect On The Hulk
Had so much power he deafeated the absorbing man
Knocked Namor from Keywest to Miami
Lifted a 150 billion ton mountain
Jump into the atmosphere with on singal leap
Serve a nuke going off at point blank range
Survive the vacum of space with no problem
If enraged enough The hulk could knock Juggernaut unconcious! And with the
help of a few good heros kill him off annihilating his a**. Juggernaut us not
a God, or even God like he aint so tough. Hulk could take him and mangle his
a*** repeatedly!
un·con·scious ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-knshs)
adj.
Lacking awareness and the capacity for sensory perception; not conscious.
Temporarily lacking consciousness.
Occurring in the absence of conscious awareness or thought: unconscious resentment; unconscious fears.
Without conscious control; involuntary or unintended: an unconscious manneri
Your probably saying to yourself. The hulk could never do that, this is absurd. well your wrong
if The hulk could hold up a 150 billion ton mountaun then he could surely beat the
stuffing out of Juggernaut. Now, check this out.
In unlimited access #1- Wonderwoman manages to knock juggernaut unconcious? Now
how did that happen you must be reading quizativly. Well tuns out that Juggy's
helmet is dislodged and Wonderwoman punches juggernaut into a speeding mantis,
which knocks him unconcious. Now how in the heck could Juggernaut be knocked
unconcious if he's invulnerable to physical force, well obviously his is
vulnerable to physical force, and if that is the case then The hulk could
absolutly handle The Juggernaut with physical force and punch him in his shit
until he got KNOCKED THE F*** OUT!
If thats not enough to tell you how just uninvincible Juggernaut is....
Check out this encounter Juggernaut had with Onslaught! Now keep
in mind that the Hulk was strong enough to destroy Onslaughts armor.
Uncanny X-Men #322
STORY: "Dark Walk" (21 pages) A group of mutants commit a spree killing in a New York nightclub. Meanwhile, the Beast, Bishop and Psylocke are visiting Hoboken, New Jersey when the Juggernaut crashes into the town. Once they calm him down, he tells them that he has been punched all the way from Canada by Onslaught nearly killing Juggernaut, leaving him comatosed!
Hope this ends the futile posting of who Hulk vs. Juggernaut. Hulk wins, go Hulk. Cards are stacked to high
against Juggernaut. but Bring it own, I'll continue to bring your logical reasoning on why Juggernaut would
lose, I welcome it.
KMC Community Forums
Apr 20th, 2004 06:39 AM
