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Matrix questions
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el_barto
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can some1 help me i cant figure out how smith took over a guy that was not jacked in


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Old Post Nov 12th, 2003 09:37 PM
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The Unknown
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What person are you talking about?


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Old Post Nov 12th, 2003 10:07 PM
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MC Mike
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that happened in Reloaded... ever seen it? Seriously, cuz if you didn't watch it you should... stick out tongue If you did, then you should remember...

you are talking about Bane right?


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Old Post Nov 12th, 2003 10:07 PM
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The Unknown
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el_barto, if you're talking about Bane, he WAS jacked in when he was taken over. The new Smith then jacked out into Bane's body.


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"The MTV Movie Awards are a systemic anomaly inherent to the programming of the Matrix. Although the transport process has altered your consciousness, you irrevocably remain human. Ergo, concordantly, vis-a-vis... You know what? I have no idea what the hell I'm saying. I just thought it would make me sound cool."
-The Architect AKA Larry

Old Post Nov 12th, 2003 10:14 PM
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neo_dragon
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here's how i think about it: i would suggest thinking of the one and neo as separate entities within the same body. thus, neo is dead since he gave his life to save zion and the matrix. the one program may be needed again, however, it may not, make that, most likely will not be neo, especially since neo wasn't each of his 5 predecessors.

Old Post Nov 13th, 2003 12:14 AM
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khellhound
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Just a couple thoughts...

Oracle and Archie spar about "The Others" and if they'll be freed....we assume they're talking about Humans, but what if they're talking about Programs?

I do agree with the Anti-virus thing, though...I don't agree with the cancelling out idea....mainly because, from a film-making point of view, NOTHING happens in a movie without a reason...If Neo & Smith cancelled each other out, then Deus Ex wouldn't have to "do" anything ...I.E. the wonderful light show...

Another thing I don't know has been addressed refers back to M1..."Have you ever had a dream you were...yada yada yada"

What if there are layers to the Matrix? What if Zion and the Machines exist in ANOTHER matrix? As opposite halves of an equation? This would answer the burning question about how Neo could control/see the machines...It would be just like stopping bullets in the Matrix...

To look at it from a Software point of view, perhaps the "Matrix" is akin to BIOS/Machine language, and the "Real" world is akin to an Operating System...Different layers, but still software...Not that that is ever addressed directly in the movies...

I think that Sati also has an important role in the film, she's in multiple scenes, starting from the beginning...Perhaps rather than being the "Sunset Queen" program, she's the machine's answer to Beauty/Love...The machines cannot see a practical purpose for this, hence her destiny to be deleted...

OK...now I'm getting punchy...

Old Post Nov 13th, 2003 02:10 AM
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zeprush311
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I don't think anything was uploaded into Neo when Smith copied him. I think the master machine simply killed him (via electrocution from what it looked like), thus killing Smith. I think that the solution is to kill someone jacked into the matrix when Smith copies him. This would A) kill the person jacked in obviously, B) kill all Smiths because they are all one conscious. That's my theory anyways.

Old Post Nov 13th, 2003 03:59 AM
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Mantrainer5
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Re: revolutions burning questions!!! spoiler inside

[
quote:
Originally posted by oogy
First off...if you haven't seen this yet dont read any further

SPOILER WARNING

1. The little Indian girl, Sati, is refered to as 'the last exile', a programme without purpose. Now, we know that useless programmes have a choice, to go back to the source, or hide in the Matrix. Her father decides that she is too precious to go back to the source, so he makes a deal with Merv to allow her to stay, while he and his wife get deleted? I think this is the case. Anyway, Sati goes off to hide with the Oracle, but is then turned into Agent Smith.


Sati is not turned into Agent Smith. She is a program that exists apparently for no practical purpose but to express the love of her parent programs. She creates the beautiful sunset at the last scene between the Oracle and the Architect.

quote:
She later appears at the end of the movie once the Matrix has been rebooted. Can anyone tell me, what exactly is the point of the last exile? What does she do, or signify?


I don't think that is made clear. She is a program that is self-aware, as is the Oracle herself, but she MAY become important in the next evolutionary stage of the Matrix, since the Machine Mind has agreed to make peace with Neo, destroy the computer virus that has become Smith, and thus call off Smith's war against Zion (we know that the Computer Mind can't control Smith and Smith is a threat to the Machine World). It is understood, of course, that the Machine Mind needs Zion, for only Zion can provide the means of retrieving Neo from the Matrix. Neo is needed by the Machine Mind to refine and improve the matrix so that the human batteries will not only survive, but flourish. This is a never-ending process that is itself subject to evolutionary change. The destruction of Zion is a priority of Smith, NOT the Machine Mind. If Smith had succeeded in destroying Zion, the Machine Mind itself would ultimately be destroyed, since its power source would evenually atrophy--that is, the Matrix would not be so successful over time in providing a genuinely believable world to sustain the human batteries. In this theory of the matrix, the Machine Mind needs to limit Zion, but NOT destroy it entirely. The people in Zion are real people. It is not altogether clear to me that Neo is a real human being by the time of M1 He certainly appears to be human, and I take him as human, but then he presumably reappears in each new cycle of the matrix. Perhaps there is always a new Neo, or a human being who answers to the purpose, because it is clear that the Machine Mind needs Neo in order to make the matrix better. But Neo is also something more. Neo is the short form of the word Neocortex. Neo's mind is the template the Machine Mind needs to keep the matrix realistic and believable. How? The Machine Mind has hardwired all the human batteries and they are essentially passive participants in the collective hallucination that is the matrix on a good day. The Machine Mind, however, needs the conflict and danger of real human experience. This Neo provides as a real human being who also has superhuman abilities (at least in the matrix), since his mind is the foundation of the matrix itself.

quote:
2. The Oracle (in her new guise)says that she sees the end of the war one way or another. By this she means that either a) Smith will destroy everything, man and machine, therefore no war or b) Neo will save the world by doing what he does at the end of the film. But the Oracle does not seem to know in which way it will end. She knows there has to be an end, but she doesn't know how. If she doesn't know how, then Agent Smith doesn't know how... even when he takes her over. This is why Agent Smith says 'Is it over?' at the end... because he doesn't know! What confuses me is that she also sayd that the Architect 'can't see past choice'. If she is the Architect's opposite, then can she see past choice or not? If she can, then she would know how it ends.


She can only make choices and hope those choices are the ones that destabilize the matrix. She exists in order to make the matrix a believable world for the human batteries. Otherwise, the batteries would die, as Agent Smith made clear in M1. The Architect can't be allowed to run the whole show, his constructions would necessarily be "too perfect." He is a program, after all, not a human being.

quote:
3. Neo makes a deal with the Deus Ex Machina, saying that if he destroys Agent Smith (who is beyong the Matrix's control), then man and machine should live in peace. Fine. That seems logical. But why does he let Agent Smith take himover? I know that Agent Smith and Neo are opposites, so does it mean that they cancel each other out? I think Agent Smith wanted to destroy the entire Matrix, which would be the only way to set himself free. That was his purpose... to destroy the Matrix, while Neo's was to save it. Therefore the theory of cancelling each other out makes sense. Smith wants to destroy Neo, because Neo holds the code to reboot the Matrix, something which Smith doesn't want. Neo wants to destroy Smith because he wants to save the Matrix, being the only way to save the entire human race (well, those who are still plugged in). So, they cancel each other out, and Neo's code reboots the Matrix. Now... why don;t the machines continue to attack Zion? They have a new Matrix... no Neo and no Smith... it would be so easy for them to destroy Zion. Is it just becaouse of their pact with Neo? Doesn't sound like machine logic to me.


Answered some of this already. Smith is a virus program. How did that happen? Neo entered Agent Smith in M1. That event altered Smith's program and he became a virus whose only purpose was to destroy the matrix, since the matrix is "too human". In MR, Neo lets Smith enter him so that he could cause Smith to self-destruct, which he promptly does. What makes this possible and realistic is that Smith is out to destroy Neo--not the Machine Mind, but Neo, as the source of the matrix itself. It is not necessary that Smith "know" that Neo is the source. He just knows that if he destroys Neo, he will also damage and possibly destroy the matrix. Smith doesn't control the Machine Mind--he is just a program that may have once served the Machine Mind but became infected by Neo in M1 and has, in a sense, become a self-contained virus that the Machine Mind cannot stop.

quote:
4. The Architect tells the Oracle that he will free those who want to be freed. What does this mean? Will he free those who reject the Matrix at a subconscious level (as mentioned in reloaded) Or will he free all humans who find out about the Matrix? Will he free evryone if everyone finds out?


The Architect means to say that those who wish to be freed of the matrix will be freed to do so. The people in Zion wished to be free and they are now free. They use machines still to grow their food and provide their energy--but all in all it doesn't seem to be a very attractive world. Still, they are "free" in the sense they are no longer being fed the predigested pap of reality that the matrix provides the multitude.

There is a good question here though. How are the human batteries to become aware of the objective reality in which they actually exist, versus the shared hallucination provided by the matrix? Will the Machine Mind permit the free humans to access and interupt the matrix programming? This seems to me to be the big problem with any so-called peace between the Machine Mind and Zion. Peace may not be realistic until one side or the other wins a final victory.

quote:
The latter would result in the machines losing their source of power. Is there to be a new balance, where-by humans and machines co-habit the earth, and try to unscorch the sky (something hinted at I think, when the Logos flies up above the clouds)...or will the future consist of Zionites and 01 living independantly, with a small transfer of humans between the two as people get woken from the Matrix? The ending is very unclear on this. What is the situation?


Seems to me you've hit the nail on the head. Perhaps future sequels will give us the answers to this buring question!

Old Post Nov 13th, 2003 05:30 AM
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Synbios16
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I think Neo did die, but not before the machines could copy him. Smith and Anderson are common names, yes? One of my theories is, umm hard to explain but here I go. How do we know, what happened didn't happen almost exactly the same way the other five times (Neo Ver 5.0)? It may have, and before he died each time, the machines copied him, his conscience, his abilities and his 'unbalanced equation' to make the next series of agents or next main agent. Which is why Smith was so important, because he may be a copy of the previous "One"

Old Post Nov 13th, 2003 05:39 AM
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Mantrainer5
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Re: Just a couple thoughts...

quote:
Originally posted by khellhound
What if there are layers to the Matrix? What if Zion and the Machines exist in ANOTHER matrix? As opposite halves of an equation? This would answer the burning question about how Neo could control/see the machines...It would be just like stopping bullets in the Matrix...


Neo has certain powers due to his connection to "the source." What is the source? Neo functions as the neocortical template--a dynamic, living, changing template--from which the Machine Mind enhances the functions and realism of the matrix itself. Neo himself doesn't really understand WHY he can do what he does do, but we know that when he does these things he is "getting in touch" with aspects of his own mind, i.e. the source. In a sense I suppose he can do what he does because memory provides him with the sense of how the matrix works. Beyond that I don't have a theory, not that that's much of one, I admit. But the Oracle always tells Neo that he already knows something whenever he asks a question.

quote:
To look at it from a Software point of view, perhaps the "Matrix" is akin to BIOS/Machine language, and the "Real" world is akin to an Operating System...Different layers, but still software...Not that that is ever addressed directly in the movies...


You can do this, but it is not necessary. The various machines, in their war with humanity, developed sufficient complexity and integration--perhaps in some form of an array--where conscious machine intelligence spontaneously arose. Machine intelligence requires two things: hardware, that occupies real space and time, and software, meaning the code. Presumably the Machine Mind developed the ability to generate code, for the purpose of self-survival against the human effort to destroy the machines. The Oracle, Smith, Sati, etc. are all programs that are being run in some machine or other, presumably also connected to the array and are part of the Machine Mind. The Machine Mind recognizes that such programs may be useful in creating a reality that it really doesn't understand very well. But they have proved to be useful in creating a believable matrix for the human batteries that the Machine Mind knows it needs to survive. In other words, the non-human characters in the movie exist to promote the health of the matrix. It is not inconceivable that Smith himself is part of the mix, for certainly Neo is. Just because Smith can't be controlled doesn't mean he isn't needed. Thus we do sort of enter a portal into an indeterminate universe whose texture is created mainly by computer programs. The Machine MInd, by letting Neo live, recognizes that uncertainty and indeterminacy is needed in the software itself that generates the matrix, that the matrix might provide a truer facsimile of real life that is, as we all know, filled with uncertainty and indeterminacy.

Old Post Nov 13th, 2003 05:59 AM
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Synbios16
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also my thoery might explain why the Oracle expects to see neo again

Old Post Nov 13th, 2003 06:10 AM
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The Alpha
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but now we know that it is not "must" that whatever oracle predicts is true


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2003 08:58 AM
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Lag
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Reloaded made it clear that Trinity was the turning point of this version of the Matrix. She's what made this version different from the earlier versions. So I don't understand how the Oracle or the Oracle/Smith saw the end. He knew when it was supposed to end when Neo was lying there, he didn't know how it would end, but he knew it was to end. The only way he could know it was the end, is if it happened before, which it didn't. So my question is how was the end seen.

Also what makes Neo, Neo. When they say he has a code are they talking about a code that was inserted into him or is it a heredity trait past down in his blood line. This makes it possible that the "code" is his DNA code. This also means that all of the One's are related and judging by the way Neo was held at the end of three he could be a direct relative of Jesus or some other religious blood-line.

Maybe they are talking about an actuall code, maybe an anti-virus. It is possible to "reprogram" a person's mind and we know this from Bane. So maybe the one is somebody whose mind has been reprogrammed to carry this code and to be an extraordinary mind. If Bane jacked back in he would look like Smith, but maybe the way they reprogrammed Neo's mind didn't interfer with his mental image of himself so he looked the same as he always did. So what I'm saying is his mind is no longer his, but instead a program with the purpose to destroy anything that is a threat to anything he holds dear.

I like my first theory better, but both are something to think about.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2003 02:29 PM
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Mantrainer5
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quote:
Originally posted by Synbios16 I think Neo did die, but not before the machines could copy him. Smith and Anderson are common names, yes? One of my theories is, umm hard to explain but here I go. How do we know, what happened didn't happen almost exactly the same way the other five times (Neo Ver 5.0)? It may have, and before he died each time, the machines copied him, his conscience, his abilities and his 'unbalanced equation' to make the next series of agents or next main agent. Which is why Smith was so important, because he may be a copy of the previous "One"


I think any theory must take into account that Neo is a real human being. If he were not, if he were just a program, then the Machine Mind doesn't need Zion to extract him in M1. If the Machine Mind doesn't need Zion to extract him, then there is no rationale for permitting Zion to exist. There would then be no reason to stop Smith in M3. But clearly the Machine Mind wants Smith destroyed. Why? If Smith destroys Zion, who will extract Neo? We get into the territory of conceiving Zion as simply another level of the hallucination, but whose?

No, I think we go off track here if we develop a theory that violates our experience as moviegoers. Neo is given to us as human. We have to go with that unless and until all other theories are shown to be untenable.

Old Post Nov 13th, 2003 04:02 PM
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Mantrainer5
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quote:
Originally posted by Lag
Reloaded made it clear that Trinity was the turning point of this version of the Matrix. She's what made this version different from the earlier versions.


She's the turning point because she loves Neo, and love is something the Machine Mind perhaps does not understand about humans. "Love" doesn't compute exactly, although, it is clear that the parent programs we meet at the opening scene of M3 speak of software correlatives of the human emotion. Does this mean that these programs have become "self-aware"? Does this mean that the Machine Mind, while not understanding love, comprehends the software correlative of human love? I don't know the answer to those questions. But it does appear that the love between Trinity and Neo ENABLES Neo to reach the machine city and make a deal with the Machine Mind. On the literal level, of course, because Neo's eyes have been burned out--she has to pilot the ship. But I think also on a deeper level, Trinity's love transfigures Neo's consciousness and enables him, empowers him, to confront the Machine Mind. Love in the case of Neo puts him in touch perhaps with his deepest yearnings and longings, puts him in touch with "the source" of his power.

quote:
So I don't understand how the Oracle or the Oracle/Smith saw the end. He knew when it was supposed to end when Neo was lying there, he didn't know how it would end, but he knew it was to end. The only way he could know it was the end, is if it happened before, which it didn't. So my question is how was the end seen.


To concede that you know that a series of events must somehow "end" doesn't commit you to knowing exactly HOW the series will end or who will attain "victor˙." Smith has become a mutant virus and therein lies both his power and the limits of his vision, his purpose. He thinks the name of the game is destroying Neo. He is not especially "self-aware." He may still actually believe he is the old Agent Smith. But he has become "obsessed" as we say, monomaniacal. Orginally, Agent Smith was the "useful idiot" of the Machine Mind whose purpose was to keep the pressure on Zion. Neo's entering him transformed him into the virus he now is. Thus Neo re-enters him after the deal is cut with the Machine Mind. Neo simply tells the Machine Mind that he, Neo, knows how to defeat Smith, but evidently Neo needs, if not the help of the Mind, then its acquiescence. Thus Smith is destroyed, and war is called off, at least temporarily, and a new day dawns in the matrix. However, the Oracle still exists and promises to the exile, Sati, that Neo will once again probably return, but not for a long time yet. But I don't think we can say clearly that Neo dies, not if his neocortex is "the source." For every human being has a unique neocortex, even if the DNA is identical, as in genetic identical twins. On the other hand, maybe it doesn't matter which individual is chosen as Neo. A real human functioning brain is needed that belongs to a real human being undergoing "real life" adventures, thus the extraction, the real war that continues and is permitted to exist by the Machine Mind. After all, the Machine Mind could just nuke Zion out of existence if it really wanted to, couldn't it? So it needs Zion for some purpose.

quote:
Also what makes Neo, Neo. When they say he has a code are they talking about a code that was inserted into him or is it a heredity trait past down in his blood line. This makes it possible that the "code" is his DNA code. This also means that all of the One's are related and judging by the way Neo was held at the end of three he could be a direct relative of Jesus or some other religious blood-line.


It can't be the DNA code. DNA doesn't determine behavior in detail. It may predispose a biological entity toward a certain sort of behavior, but doesn't determine the specifics of that behavior. For example, identical twins raised under completely different conditions might show a predisposition to collect stuff, or have certain preferences, such as liking a certain level of intense excitement, etc, in order to "get off" but the particular content will differ and there will be as many other differences as exist between any other genetically unrelated human beings. "Code" I take to mean software, pure and simple. Why make this harder to understand than it already is? The matrix is, basically, a lot of computer code hardwired into the cerebral cortices of the human batteries the Machine Mind uses to power itself.

Have you ever tripped on LSD? LSD affects the chemistry of your brain in a way that makes your consciousness experience an objective reality that really seems to become altered. It's not like an hallucination that is imposed upon an objective reality that you can still sense really exists there. Your sense of reality actually becomes altered. The three-dimensional world of chairs, tables, floor, house, trees, flowers, etc., becomes somewhat fluid and you become immediately and directly aware for the first time that what you experience as objective reality may still be objective and real, but not exactly in the way that you had thought. You become aware that objective reality is some sort of a construction of your own mind. You see that the philosopher Kant was correct in believing human beings experience things as they appear, although there is no reason to accept Kant's skepticism. Which is real when you run a computer program, the code that "creates" the experience, or the "experience" itself? In biology, the code appears to arise through evolutionary processes of conflict and growth. In the matrix, these processes must be mimicked by the software.

Old Post Nov 13th, 2003 05:03 PM
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Lag
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I wouldn't dismiss the DNA theory so quickly. DNA doesn't tell who a person is in detail, but it has a great deal to do with who we are. What you said about the twins is true which is why, if this theory were correct, it takes such a long time for another One to surface. You are more likely to find a genius in a family with a history of geniuses than in a family with a history of idiots. Same with everything, musicians, doctors, professors, and so on. Actually there is no reason for both theories to be correct. It could be a computer code and also a gene past on. When the One is born the Machines recognize his brain patterns and implant the code. There is no proof of this theory and realy no reason to think this true.

I'm not excactly sure how it was said, but the Smith/Oracle said something like "I've seen this before" this line alone means this happened before "I'm supposed to say something here." Correct me if I'm wrong, and please do, the only way the Oracle, the Architect, and the Oracle/Smith knows something is going to happen is because it has happened already, I think that's right, but Trinity changed all that. I know I'm basically repeating myself and Mantrainer5 tried answering this question, but Oracle/Smith doesn't just know the end is there, he takes it a step further and says "I've seen this before" and that makes no sense, unless I, being the human I am, missed something.

I know somebody is going to try and answer this question, but the facts are this scene never happened before, but somehow, impossibly, the Oracle/Smith says he saw that before. I'll be impressed to be proven wrong, but I think this is unanswerable or maybe it just doesn't matter as much as I'm making it out to be. Maybe it was just a script flaw or something.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2003 06:25 PM
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Lag
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I've never tripped on anything nor do I think it's safe with the imagination that I have, not saying I have a superior imagination than anybody, but it's just a weird one. I'm not the brightest crayon in the box either, but where I lack, I make up for by not having closed doors. I actually believe that because I'm not a genuis in many fields I'm not limited to what I see. Most of my day is spent in my room with my eyes closed and writing music or gathering material from my thoughts for a painting or a plot. I've been around artist who truly beleive that drugs help them theorize and come up with off the wall pictures or songs and maybe they do, but they still don't turn out as much original material that I do just my thinking. I'm not trying to sound like an anti-drug ad, in fact my point isn't even about drugs, it's about not having limitations to anything. If you just let your mind go you can see anything you want. I don't mean free your mind either, I just mean let it take you where it wants to go and anything can become anything. You'll be suprised.

Wow. This really has nothing to do with The Matrix. Maybe the idea of it does, but in terms of story-line it has nothing to do with it.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2003 06:51 PM
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SpikeSpiegel
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You haven't answered my question


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2003 07:46 PM
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Lag
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I only kind of remember the light squid, but I think it was just to show what Neo saw and that would explain why I didn't pay much mind to it. I could be completely wrong though because I don't fully remember it.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2003 07:54 PM
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The Unknown
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quote:
Originally posted by zeprush311
I don't think anything was uploaded into Neo when Smith copied him. I think the master machine simply killed him (via electrocution from what it looked like), thus killing Smith. I think that the solution is to kill someone jacked into the matrix when Smith copies him. This would A) kill the person jacked in obviously, B) kill all Smiths because they are all one conscious. That's my theory anyways.



Killing someone jacked in wouldn't kill all of the Smiths. They obviously loaded something into Neo, which was most likely what destroyed them all.


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-The Architect AKA Larry

Old Post Nov 13th, 2003 09:37 PM
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