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yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
that's just the teapot that stands behind me...
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Dec 4th, 2001 04:17 PM |
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finti
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
mah it is personal meaning and a more humane view on it.
Personally I think it is fine the way it is today. Public oppinion is not like mine. I agree my reply got a bit unclear though.
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Dec 4th, 2001 04:32 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
 Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
I didn't say it would be stupid to have equal chances. I said that why SHOULD there be? Why the heck should ANYONE expect life to be fair? How exactly do you think it works, Mah? Finti is right. It's the way it is.
It doesn't mean that life has no meaning. As I say, make of it what you can. If you think that just because life is unfair it has no meaning or reason then you have a seriously warped view of things. I've seen people find triumph in the direst of circumstances. And it's not just those born into poverty. The richest man in the world can find as great a depression ad desperation as anyone- of course, it's far less likely, but it's still possible.
Personally I have far more respect for those who make what they can out of what they are given than those who think it is all pointless because it is unfair.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Dec 4th, 2001 06:18 PM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
ok, everyone can be happy, not depending on the money they have; but you have to realize that life IS unfair and that those people have right to complain, and it doesn't give them less repect!
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Dec 4th, 2001 06:41 PM |
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mah
J-type 327 Nubian
 Gender: Male
Location: Florø, Norway |
ush: you said:" Why the heck SHOULD there be equal chances? What sort of artificial lifeless world would THAT be? "
this is BS. this is what I reacted to. I'm perfectly aware that it's not equal chances on earth, and that there probably will never be. nevertheless, there SHOULD be. it would not be an artificial lifeless world, it would be a world where people COULD make the most out of life.
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Dec 4th, 2001 06:49 PM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
You must all be very aware that you are from the rich part of this planet
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Dec 4th, 2001 06:52 PM |
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finti
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
So?
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Dec 4th, 2001 07:47 PM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
I see your brains are now totally lost... ask mah to buy some new ones...
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Dec 4th, 2001 08:15 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
That's an unfair response, yerss. Finti saying 'so?' is very valid. That we are from first-world countries has nothing to do with it at all.
Mah, I am afraid it is YOU who are talking BS. A world with equal chances? What sort of crap is that? The only way you could create equal chances is to make a world with NO chances at all. Indeterminacy and luck are not only parts of life that we will never be without, they are also VITAL. A world with truly equal chances would be SO forced and artificial as to cause stagnation. I mean, how exactly do you think it would work? I guess you want to genetically change everyone so they all have the same talents, huh? Because the talents you are born with sure as heck are unfair on others.
Perhaps you plan on setting WHEN people are born, so a great trombonist who would normally have been born 4000 years before that instrument is invented is in fact born at the right time?
It's far more than saying that these things are impossible. These things are UNDESIRABLE. People are different. That's something to celebrate, not condemn. But you can only give people equal chances by removing ALL differences, and making sure that EVERYONE is bought up in EXACTLY the same way.
As far as I am concerned, this would be a nightmare world bereft of individuality and imagination.
Ok, we can work on overcoming some of the more obvious problems of the world, but truly wishing for a world of total equality is a poor goal.
Meanwhile, the world is unfair. But I repeat- that does not make life any less valid. People should not be criticised for being born with advantages. In the end, ALL you can do is try and make the best out of what you have been given.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Dec 4th, 2001 08:48 PM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
ah! so there are unfair responses but not equal chances are not unfair?
I don't know what you are talking about Ush, but I don't think mah said anything about everyone with the same talents... those talents make you special, everyone is special, but what I'm talking about (and I think mah agrees) is that people who doesn't have enough money are treatend unfair, and because they have those disadvantages they cannot persue there reason of life (and what the hell is that now?)
I'll say it again, we are not talking about controlling everyones life so you can have the same talents or deceide when someone is born, we are talking about equal chances in this time!
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Dec 4th, 2001 08:53 PM |
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mah
J-type 327 Nubian
Gender: Male
Location: Florø, Norway |
ush:
I think you misunderstand what I mean. for me, equal chances means that everyone should have possibilitiesto get food, education, and so on. I would NEVER under any circumstances support genetically modifying anyone to get these or those abilities. I DON'T want equal people, modified people or anything of what you listed in your post. and yes, it is as good as impossible, but desirable? yes.
remember, what I mean by equal chances are that everyone should have food, education, a place to live, NOT that everyone should have identical lives.
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Dec 4th, 2001 09:00 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
But you cannot have truly equal chances as another person, yerss, unless you are EXACTLY the same as him. The faster runner will always be the better athelete, the quick-minded the better mathematician, the the more patient a better clock-maker.
This may seem to be taking your argument to an extreme, but it is actually a valid point. These 'equal' chances you talk about, this would also involve having to make everywhere in the world the same as well. The principle of everyone actually having exactly the same chances as each other is in fact a horrible one.
As I say, what we CAN do is try and remove some of the more obvious inequalities from the world. But I doubt that anyone is in disagreement on that.
Meanwhile, you seem to be thinking that there is no point to life unless it is totally fair. I maintain that this is nonsense.
BTW, your first line makes no sense at all. Not only is it pure sophistry, I didn't say that the inequal chances were not unfair, so it was plain wrong as well. I just said that you have to deal with the unfairness.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Dec 4th, 2001 09:02 PM |
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mah
J-type 327 Nubian
Gender: Male
Location: Florø, Norway |
maybe you're misunderstanding again. equal chances doesn't mean the EXACT same house, the EXACT same food, the EXACT same type of education, it just means that everyone should have SOME KIND OF house, SOME KIND OF food to eat, SOME KIND OF education.
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Dec 4th, 2001 09:06 PM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
I knew you were going to take it literally! Equal chances do NOT mean that you are all blond/brown or whatever. It means you have the same chances to get as much food, money... as anyone else...
In this world, this is definatly NOT the case and therefor some people are treatend unfairly. So don't talk about mathematics and stuff, it has nothing to do with chances, that's more IQ (I think).
And equal chances DOESN'T make every the same, everyone is different, has his own unique possibilities, hobbies etc. By this no house will be the same, making no street the same etc.
And Ush, that's not my point in life, the only thing I can make up of life is that you only are here to suffer. But what concerns me is that some (a lot actually) don't have the same chances as we have, and for them it can be unfair because they may never get to their point in life...
btw: sophistry? don't know what that is... but guess you are right... I think...
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Dec 4th, 2001 09:13 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
Well, I agree, Mah, that there are very disadvantaged people in this world that should be given the basic facilities that we take for granted. Again, I don't think there is anyone who disagrees with that.
Really, though, I am trying to concentrate on yerssot's basic question. In the end, we could remove ALL disaease, war, and famine from tjhe world, make every country a first-world civilisation with the same laws and traditions, and the world would STILL be drastically unfair. The very difference between people- that is so vital- makes it so.
So even any reasonable description of a 'perfect' world would still be very unfair. So what is it that yerssot wants? A better world? We all want that. A fairer world? There is a fair amount oif effort going in that direction already. It's a crappy world in some places. I still don;t see why that means there is no point to life.
Like I say. The world is unfair, and that's a bit harsh. But we can deal with it. And make the most of what you have.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Dec 4th, 2001 09:14 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
And to answer yerss' further points...
I wasn't taking you literally, yerss. I was showing you the absurdity of your point. And 'mathematics and stuff' ios very pertinent to that point. Some people are born better at that than others. This is unfair, surely?
And you think we are only here to suffer? What, everything you have ever done has been unpleasant, has it? When I look at all the happy and conetent people in the world who did what they could despite what life threw at threm, that statement seems pretty week.
Sophistry, yerss, is the art of trying to destroy someone' argument, not with facts and reasoned statements, but simply by trying to sound better. You used a completely illogical point to try and defeat my statement; that's sophistry.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Dec 4th, 2001 09:17 PM |
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mah
J-type 327 Nubian
Gender: Male
Location: Florø, Norway |
it seems that we all really agree, what me and, I think yerss ,means are that those people who have almost nothing should get the basics.
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Dec 4th, 2001 09:18 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
Indeed, and I think that is something that everyone can agree on.
But he seems to be using this 'unfairness' as a basis for saying that the only point of life is suffering. I am pointing out that this unfairness is a basic part of life- as I just described we could improve this world all we want and life would still be unfair; to actually eliminate ALL the unfairness would be disastrous.
I don't really think that the core of yerssot's point is that some places are better to live than others. I don't see how his life would be improved if they did. He'd still have to deal with the unfairness of life. This was really my point.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Dec 4th, 2001 09:24 PM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
That they are born "better" is not a biggie, it's about the chances they've got. Hey, for all I know, you are a new Einstein and I'm just the stupid Dutchman  but that doesn't concern me, we still got the same chances (ok, you get more likely the job as engineer, but face it, when you can't do something well, you aren't that interrested in it, so that's not a real problem)
Yes, I think we are here to suffer, we are born in pain, we life by pain, we die by pain... What happend in everyones life is pain and the only time you don't have pain are just the few days (tops) that are good, then it'll start all over again.
If you look at the people in the world, ofcourse everyone is happy, they don't want to be remembered of their pain! Give someone from India money and he will get his experiences with content to a new hight (and looking at their current situation, a better one) The statement is not "pretty week" it's a personal opinion, wich I see made true every day.
Ah! thanx Ush, cool, I am now officially an artist...
and when did I do that? can't remember that one
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Dec 4th, 2001 09:25 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
Well, if you ask me someone being born an amazing scientist has a hugely unfair advantage compared to the guy next door who is born with no talent at all. Just as unfair as if the sceintist was born somewhere where he has no chances to make use of bis talents.
In both cases, the person being born couldn't help it, and in both cases they will never achieve in life.
I submit that the talent you are given is just as much a case of 'fairness' as where you are born. Talent gives you chances, yerss, no two ways about it.
So, yerss, you seem convinced that all we do is pain. I am not sure what you base that upon. I think it is a bit presumptuous of you to say that all these happy people are just deluding themselves; in fact, I rathger thionk that is insulting them. Did it ever occur to you that these people are actually happy with good reason? Because they have gotten somewhere DESPITE how unfair life is? And I don't care if that statement of yours is an opinion. It IS a very weak one. I will not give serious credibility to anyone who says that all life is pain, and who can only back that by saying that all happy people are just lying to themselves.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Dec 4th, 2001 09:34 PM |
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