I spent a lot of time on this, probably more so than I've ever spent on an RP like this before. I looked at our task from every direction I could think of. I did, for a while try to think of ways to distinguish between the 'real' Azrael and the 'fake' Azrael, until I realised that once I had differed between the two, there was no moral ground I could take which would show that the real or fake should be killed. As I arrived at this conclusion, that there was no moral ground either should die, I explored that more.
Both Azraels would be able to help Zion, each in their own way. The real Azrael would be able to work more directly with Zion, recieving orders directly etc, but the danger of having to be at broadcast depth is a serious downside. On the flip side, the fake Azrael would have hardly any contact with Zion, no 'loadout' place and no patronage, although the freedom to always work in the matrix, without fear of a real body being destroyed, is a huge upside. Being a reasonable person, as well as honourable, Azrael would say it didn't matter who drunk, since there was no possible way to be sure anyway.
This would have seemed fine, but since it is nesscessary to choose, I realised I don;t trust Melitus at all. I think if the copy were to live, then Melitus would just dispose of them. Since both Azraels would agree with the fact that Melitus is ruthless, and will probably kill the copy, they want the human to live. From that point of reasoning, I discovered from Ush that only our side of the partition wall is making the submission, and since it is the 'reals' he is interested, I think it would be their way of thinking he is most interested, and so the Azrael I am controlling is the 'real' Azrael. Therefore the other should drink.
Submission finished!
__________________ "If clowns warred on monkeys, and the monkeys had guns, and were trained to use them, who would win?"
Ok, I hate to do this as it means more delay... but Castor, would you be so kind as to describe exactly what you think a soul is, and, if this is not a stupid question, what the point, or function, or 'benefit; of having one is?
Also- Castor and Rade... we are very leary about self-drinking submissions. May I ask- if I said that so long as you make a rational submission, Melitus will NOT kill you both if you cannot agree on a drinker, would that change your decision?
My brother feels that some of you that 'should', probably, be finishing your submission in a deadlock are instead trying to kill yourselves just to get finality- we would rather that did not happen; it detracts from what you actually believe.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Apr 26th, 2004 at 12:12 AM
A soul is something your born with, I cant explain it exactly. Its what makes us more human than a machine. Its like free will, or a mind of your own. Your born with it. In the earlier days I would say I dont know what the functioin of a soul is. Some say it keeps us from being immoral. Give us a sense of right and wrong. I think that, now, it also distinguishes the living from the created. Just because your created doesnt mean your living. Living things have souls. Created things dont necessarily have them.
Of course if meltius was nto going to kill me I would most definatly not choose. There were two rational decisions I had to think about. Either go solely on ym beliefs and watch both of us die. Thus not reeally helping zion at all. Or, accepting that one of us has to dies and although i may not believe it tio be me, it owuld be better i die and someone, hell anyone, live on and continue the fight than to have no one here in our place at all. If meltius would not have kille dus. I would not have chose for anyone to die. I would have stuck to my beliefs, because a decision based on my beliefs is a true and logical as I can muster. He would have to accept that.
__________________ Undefeated of the East
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"Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to."
Ok, so, as simply as you can put it, what benefit does having a soul give you, do you think?
And so what would your choice be if you move away from the whole 'both dying' thing, and accept that a deadlocked submission simply does not solve the problem?
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
I would have to accept that my beliefs and logic have lead me to a deadlock. Just the way it would be. Cant change my beliefes, not honestly.
A soul is not sometihing i can explain, its benefits are being human I guess. Being able to laugh. Being able to distinguish between right and wrong without programming. I find it hard to explain. Perhaps thats why i eliminated it from my submission. But still I think it is an important part of the human-machine difference.
__________________ Undefeated of the East
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"Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to."
I don't want to sound obvious, but machines can plainly laugh...
Problem is, your submission needs to be judged against your earlier answers and one of those answers was 'yes' when asked if you believed in a soul. Trouble is your interpretation of what a soul is changes the impact of that.
Anyway, so, your submission would be that you want the Human to live, you think you are the Human, but you cannot think of any way to convince the other guy, yes?
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Apr 26th, 2004 at 02:35 PM
yes, ofcourse it would change my decision.........
The submission is still the same, ofcourse..because basicly...by randomly choosing one of us to drink, like i did (and explained why) i put my fate in simple chance.....that's a risk i would rather not take...if given the option. I chose him to drink thinking that if i don't..we're both dead....
so if he wouldn't kill us...yes...i would rather not take the chance and risk it...so...i would rather not choose
Errr... so you say you are unable to solve the problem, Dexx? I cannot see now that you have a submission that really gets to grips with things at all.
Bearing in mind the offer is still that the one that lives, Melitus will release (twinned with his original offer to remove the coding from you that is preventing you from leaving the Matrix), so the objective for both of you is still to 'win' the scenario, as it were.
And to be honest, don't be certain that he won't try and kill you- I am just trying to get this erroneous instant death mentality out of your heads, as it is getting your submissions all twisted.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Apr 26th, 2004 at 02:37 PM
oh..then i missunderstood......i guess my submission stays the same...though...you said you're leary about self-drinking submissions...i didn't choose to drink.....
I suppose so. I can think of no other solution. My beliefs have led me here. If Meltius is going to kill me, or not that wont change my path. I have 2 choices. If meltius isnt going to kill me then I choose to not decide for i can come to no justified conclusion. But if he is going to kill me, then I choose to drink. One of us must live.
__________________ Undefeated of the East
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"Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to."
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Apr 23rd, 2004 03:51 PM
