I suppose it's each to their own divine perception - so to speak.
But if God isn't male, why is it "Our Lord", "Him", "Father" etc??
The Force> Okay! It's been weeks now, and you promised to prove Creation to me. You even claimed you could do it fast. So... ?
Am I to take you silence as you CAN'T prove Creation?
Figures...
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
Rusky>
If I have to wait so long for The Force to prove Creation to me, that I DO grow grey hair I should maybe conclude he CAN'T prove it??
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
Darth> Oh, he does. I remind him in other threads, that I'm still checking this to see his proof.
Besides - > I REFUSE to let this die until he answers.
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
Well in that case I think it's safe to assume what we've been thinking all along (even though assuming is highly un-scientific)--that there IS no proof, at least none that Force knows of.
Darth> Sure
At least Julibug had the courage to admit, that she has no proof. That she believes in something, and that is her right.
The Force has just claimed he could prove Creation to me, and answer the points I raised WAY back on page two or three or something.
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
Well, I decided to do a little research on this. I went to google and did a search for "proof of Creationism". I got a ton of results. However, many of them were simply advertising books about the subject. One of them was a link to a Christian forum in a thread titled "is there proof for creation". I found a site called "Answers in Genesis". Inside, there were a lot of things that seemed to logically prove biblical events--for example, there was an article about Noah's flood, and it explained how it had to have covered the entire earth. If it had only covered a localized region in Mesopotamia, Noah could have simply left and moved somewhere else. The problem with that is that such a significant event would certainly be visible to Geologists. Yet there has been no recorded discovery of such evidence. I found a lot of things like that. There was not, in the entire site, an article that gave solid, scientific evidence of Creation's occurance. It even claimed that there is no proof for evolution. I then did a google search for "proof of evolution." The very first site I tried was an article that clearly proved evolution. There was more scientific evidence in a single article less than a page long than in the entire site that claimed to prove Creation.
So, the proof of Creation, if you are a Christian, is essentially believing what you read in the bible. Either that, or these so-called "Creation Scientists" don't publish their work on the Internet.
Barf> We've been through quite a few ice-ages during Earths history, and when they ended, and he ice melted you naturally had floods in certain areas of the world. Many cultures have flood-myths. That ONLY proves that there have been floods in Earh's history.
You can't proove the Bible by USING the bible. No one knows if Noah even existed? Can anyone proe that Noah was a real man and not just a myth?
I would've LOVED to see the so-called evidence for Creation. Why? Because there IS none. If you go back a few pages, you see The Force or Julibug post stuff made by "scientists" and other "sientific evidence". But when asked for sources, background info etc. no one has anything.
I think many Creationists just think, that because it SAYS "proof of creation" on Internet pages - well - then it's been proven. It wont be. Why? because it CAN'T be proven. Then they resort to attacking evolution, as if falsifying one theory proves another. Nonsense!
This was written on February 17th.
Either The Force has a VERY long way home, or he lacks the answers he's promised me.
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but there's a book called "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them" by Al Franken out right now. It's actually about conservatives in America, but I must say that some of the sites I looked at reminded me of the stuff in that book. They claim that there is scientific evidence for Creation; you look through the site, and all you find is a whole lot of bible stories, along with some biographies of "scientists" who believe in creation. They also claim that there is no proof of evolution. I decided to send them an email asking them for one single shred of scientific evidence that Creation occured. It will be interesting to see whether or not they reply. Here's a link to the site, in case you're interested: (try one of the links under "additional resources" on the left side of the page)
Hello The Omega. You say there is no evidence of creation? WRONG.
You speak as if Evolution is absolutely how things were created.
I just want to share with you a few things.
Creation.
First, EVERYTHING has a creator. A hammer. A house. A car. Everything. So, you are going to sit there and tell me that the universe, the earth, and everything in it was created from an explosion......That came from nothingness? Don't be a fool. That is utterly ridiculous. The things I listed were all created by intelligence. They all had a brain behind them. A hammer cannot create itself. It needs a creator. How can something be created out of ABSOLUTELY nothing? It can't! Just think about it.
Now, I'd like you to take a look at the world around you. Do you see it? Everything fits. It's all perfect.
Anyone with a brain should know that this couldn't come out of nothing. It had to be something divine. Something perfect....Something called God. How could it be anything else? Anything else just doesn't make sense.
Did you know that if gravity was 1 pound heavier, we'd all be crippled? How could the "big bang" create such a perfect environment? If there was no brain to do the thinking, everything would be screwed up.
Purpose.
One of the definitions of purpose is "the reason for which something exists or for which it has been done or made". There is no purpose for life if evolution is what created it. If we were created by evolution, and when we die it's the end, what is the purpose of life? There would be no driving force for evolution without purpose.
_____________________________________
Anyway, I'd like to tell me what you think of these things I have said. Don't they make sense? I'd like to hear your opinion.
Oh, and just a few interesting side notes and stories.
This is concerning the movie "The Passion of The Christ".
Jim Caviezel, the actor who plays Jesus was walking on the street when someone came up to him and said "You will play Jesus". The guy walked away. Jim didn't know what to think of it. Then later on he went to this interview about a Surfing movie and Mel Gibson is there. Jim says "Oh, I see what this is, it's a front. You want me to play Jesus." Mel says "Yeah, we want you to play Jesus." Some think it was an Angel that Caviezel saw on the street.
Also, Caviezels initials are J.C. and he was 33 when he started filming the movie.
One last thing...
"BIBLE'S UNIQUENESS POINTS TO GOD
Imagine a book written by more than forty authors, each with different
levels of education, social position, and age. Then imagine that these
authors used three different languages to write this book. Assume that
at the time they wrote it, some of them were in a situation of war, some
were at peace, some were imprisoned, some were living in splendor,
others in poverty. In addition, imagine that the authors of this book
lived at different times during a 1,500 year time span. What do you
suppose the result of this writing would be?
The Bible was written under these conditions. Its contents describe
hundreds of controversial topics and are of a variety of literary types,
yet there is a unity in the writing that binds it together: the theme of
God's redemption of man. The Bible is philosophically consistent. The
conditions of its writing and the resulting unity of the text speak of a
supernatural direction, the Holy Spirit, directing chosen men who
authored the Bible. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for
teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that
the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
__________________________________________________
_
When I look at all these things, I do not see coincedence. I see providence.
Last edited by MegaDeuce on Mar 2nd, 2004 at 08:56 AM
Barf> Oh, do keep me updated on whether or not you receive a reply from the Creationists.
MegaDeuce> Yes, evolution is how living speies evolved over millions and millions of years.
Rain doesn't have a CREATOR. Wind doesn't have a creator. No being created the stars, the planets, and the oceans. Tell me, what do you know about Big Bang? Nothing intelligent created the Earth. You're not proving anything, you know?
And just because YOU cannot imagine life without a God, doesn't mean there is one.
Everything fits? Everything is perfect? Tell that to the starving, the hungry, the sick and the ill. Perfection? My foot. Every moron with half a brain or less could've created male "plumbing" better. That is far from perfect.
Greavity one pound heavier? Gravity doesn't weigh ANYTHING. Gravity is a force fer petes sake. IF the circumstances during and right after Big Bang had not worked out, we wouldn't be here to wonder at them. It doesn't prove Creation.
There IS no purpose to life, other than what you make of it. Just because YOU need a purpose in your life, doesn't mean there is one. Prove it to me.
I know of books written by more than fourty authors. Scientific conference journals for example. Prove to me that the Bible is the truth without using the Bible. This books is so riddled with mistranslations (such as the one that turned a Babylonian King into Lucifer) hat it's impossible to know, what it was like when it was written. There is ZERO proof that Jesus existed.
The holy works of te Hindi are even older. So are buddhist writings. If many people writing on something, and age points to divinity then the Hindi are right.
You see providence because you were brought up to see providence when all there is is coincidence. You have not proven Creation. I still say there is no evidence for creation. You say I am wrong. Well... where IS the proof???
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
Last edited by The Omega on Mar 2nd, 2004 at 12:33 PM
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
Co-Admin
Yes, has to be said, Megadeuce's contribution to this has been one of the least thought out contributions I have ever seen on this sort of thing- arrogant and opinionated nonsense with no attempt to actually provide evidence, prove or even reasonably justify anything, complete with factual errors. And this odd idea that just because this planet is uitable for life that therefore means there must be a God. That sort of thing comes down to size of star, position relative to star, size of globe etc. There are countless trillions of trillions of planets out there! At least one of them was going to get it right somewhere, at some time, and even if it is only us, well, here we are now! Your ideas that Earth being suitable for Human Life proves there is a God- that is truly nonsense. Not to mention the fact that if gravity was a stronger force on Earth, then assuming it was not too strong for life to be practical, science says life would simply have evolved for those conditions instead. Simple as that.
BTW, the Bible is philosophically consistent because its content was subjected to editing at various points in its history. Even so, it is hardly the homogenous text you try and make it out to be.
This sort of thing massively reduces Creationist credibility in my opinion. It is simply "I am right because I say I am right" with nothing to back that at all.
Even the opening statement- saying that Omega is wrong in aying there is no proof for creationism- is not backed. Show us the damn proof then!
Or, possibly, simply point out that it is a matter of faith, which should really be the end of the argument.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Mar 2nd, 2004 at 12:46 PM
Megadeuce---> The world is far from perfect, as Omega already pointed out. Furthermore, the reason things in nature tend to work so well (before any kind of human intervention) is BECAUSE of evolution. It wasn't created like it is today. The things that work work because they have evolved from a more primitive form that didn't work so well into what they are now. Some organisms, monerans, for example, work incredibly well the way they already are; that is why they've stayed almost identical for billions of years. Others didn't work so well, so they either died off altogether, or evolved into something more efficient at whatever it is it does. Basically, it's just a species' genetic code evolving over long periods of time to work better. "Well, this didn't work out so well. Let's try this instead."
And about the gravity thing--the reason we aren't crippled isn't because some divine force created gravity to match us or vice versa; it's because we evolved to match gravity. Scientists theorize that if there were life on Jupiter, for example (I know it's impossible, I'm just using it as an example because Jupiter has such a strong gravitational pull compared to Earth), it would be considerably sturdier. It's essentially the same reason for larger animals, like elephants, for example, to have thicker, stronger limbs. Like Ush said, if gravity was stronger, we would have evolved to be bigger.
There is no purpose to life. Humans certainly have a need to feel justified in living, but that doesn't mean there is a purpose to life. Life is how it is. Period. You can't point to a flower or a songbird or something pretty and assume that just because we were born into such a strange and beautiful environment it means we have "purpose".
Perhaps you are not sure about what "scientific evidence" is. It is something that has been proven, preferably more than once, on a basis of observation. What scientific evidence is NOT is an assumption. "Well, my uncle Bob has a moustache, he must be gay." Obviously, not all gays have moustaches, and not all men with moustaches are gay. An example of what it is: "Well, the freezer is cold inside. I wonder what will happen when I put a glass of water in it?" *several hours later* "Well I'll be darned, the water turned into ice! I've proven something today--if you put water in the freezer, it turns to ice." Now, Joe Sixpack here still has a lot to learn about the effect of cold temperatures on water--he still doesn't know why, or at exactly what temperature it happens, or what might happen to a different liquid, but this is the basic scientific process. A question, a hypotheses, and proof backing the hypotheses. In this case "What will happen if I put a glass of water in there", "Well I'll be darned it froze", and the ice from the glass itself.
Feb 21st, 2004 04:15 PM
