If people are "born" gay, than why is it so hard for scientist to come up with actual proof of this? What I see are articles upon articles of them running test, and studying. If this is so true, than why is it so hard to prove this? If it's there, it's there.
No. There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply "genetic." And none of the research claims there is. Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.
I belive that sexual orientation is by choice. Just like someone chooses to be single. All of the stuff you posted, your "evidence" you say. Sexual orientation cannot possibly be inherited in the direct way eyecolor is. I also thinik that your enviorment plays a lot into as well, how you were raised as a child. That also comes into effect.
This is an article I found that was written March 2005. Very current:
Again, my original question: how are gay people born this way? Personally, I don't belive they are. There is nothing in our chemical make-up that "forces" us to have feelings for the same sex. It's the little element of life that I like to call Free Will.
btw, cute pic.
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Research scientists at the University of Illinois at Chicago recently combed the entire human genome for genetic determinates of homosexuality... and found them on chromosomes 7, 8 and 10.
You're joking right? I can see that despite all the evidence that has been given to you, you still deny that homosexuality is not a choice. If you have ever met a gay person (in the flesh; not assumptions) they will tell you that they certainly didn't choose to be this way. Gay teenagers possess the highest suicide rate in the country. Why? Because they cannot deal with their homosexuality. They don't WANT to be gay. They want to be normal and heterosexual. Some men and women try desperately to repress their homosexual feelings. They get married and have kids. But usually it never works. The marriages usually end in divorce because A) the homosexual finally decides to come to terms with his/her homosexuality B) the wife/husband finally finds out about it.
The link you found is completely bulls***. I'm sorry but it is. Dr. Throckmorton is a complete fraud. He's a large supporter of "conversion therapy", which is not supported by the psychological community. That means everyone else who is reputable in the psychological community completely disagrees with his work. He has a Christian agenda to "help" gay people become straight. He is not, has never been, and never will be a reliable source. In fact, 5/6 "successes" in the S&S study were working for "ex-gay" groups at the time - so why would they have signed up for a study of problems with "conversion" therapy?
"The difference in the outcomes of Shidlo and Schroeder and Spitzer (2003) is all about sampling. Shidlo and Schroeder advertised on the Internet and other places, specifically looking for people who felt harmed by attempts to change sexual orientation. Spitzer was looking for people who felt they had changed and were happy about it. Both studies were convenience samples, meaning the authors deliberately sought a certain type of participant. Nothing is random about either study so individually they say nothing about how likely or not change is to occur."
Yes, both studies were convenience samples, but again, S&S did not specifically recuit individuals who felt they were harmed. In fact, 9% of their sample remained in "treatment" at the end of the 5-year study. Not only that, but Throckmorton completely ignores the evidence that S&S found that the "patients" were worse off than before they attempted this "treatment." And they used common tests accepted in psychology, and remeasured several times over the course of the 25 years. The S&S study simply used much better methodology, no matter the convenience sampling. In order for a scientific experiment to be considered viable, the experiment's results most be capable of being repeated. This experiment's results have been repeated for years. Which means its viable.
You couldn't have chosen a worse source. Dr. Warren E. Throckmorton, Professor of Psychology Education: B.A., Cedarville College (used to be a community college) ; M.A., Central Michigan University (ditto); Ph.D., Ohio University (barely passed the bar exam) has been removed from the psychological association board. Why? Because he has broken several ethical/research laws for his so-called "conversion therapies". He's a laughing stock of the psychological community. His "scientific" theories on homosexuality have not been substantiated by any reputable psychological research organization in the country. Most of his studies have been performed by himself and a few other crockpots at a rundown church. I won't even get into what he thinks about race. (it's not good)
LeVay and Bailey however have won Nobel Prizes and have extremely high standings in the psychological community. The "sound bites" have been awarded hundreds of times by the American Psychological Association and the Havard Medical Association. Which one are going to believe these guys or the cracker above? Please.
Sorry dude, but you just lost twice in row. The post you previously made really undermines my view of you. I would think you would be more intelligent not to fall for such a scam. (Dr. Throckmorton has several lawsuits against him for false advertisement and ethical breaching by 'ex-gays". The number of "ex-gays" who remained "ex-gays" for at least two months is approximately 0.8 percent. That's eight out of a hundred. The number who remained "ex-gays" for at least a year is zero percent. Viable he is not.
Nice try btw. Seriously though. Go to RELIABLE sources. Not backward christian sites with more agendas than the CIA. This is an example of such a site :http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html Ivy League educated and completely substantiated. Believe them not the cracker above.
Thank you. The problem is that when people say that homosexuality is a choice they have no credible evidence. Just assumptions and bias of how it might be and what it's like. Which is bull. Biological on the hand has a mass of information.
Nobody can prove that homosexuality is a choice with credible evidence. Biological and Genetics is a whole nother story.
Well, I understand that the point of this thread is to discuss if it's genetic or a choice. But, at some point, people need to understand that homosexuality isn't new. And it's not going away. There is no "cure" for it. That makes it a fact of life. I'm not asking people to accept it. I don't care what other people think. I can live with hateful stares. What I can't tolerate is having my rights taken away. I have no problem with someone not liking me. I do have a problem with my governmant treating me like a second class citizen.
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Well you said that its the people who are actually [B]acting on these feelings that are gay. You said that they choose to be gay, meaning they choose to act on these feelings to become gay. Well, they would have to have these feelings in the first place to be gay. And as you stated before, you said that they would have to act on their feelings, so those feelings would have to be there in the first place to act on them. You never said anything about them choosing to have these feelings and they obviuosly didnt, so then they have got them some way, either being born with them, or their hormons were different, but they didnt choose to have them, just may be act on them and being honest with themselves.....so homosexuality isnt choosen, i dont know if its genetic, but it aint choosen!!
This might sound strange, but it's something I've read..
If you believe in reincarnation, then it could be possible that a person that is usually reincarnated as a female is uncomfortable when reincarnated as a male, and vice-virsa, though I think some just chose to be indulgent that way.
I do believe in reincarnation, but if you are reincarnated you wont remember anything from your past life, so in away, im wondering how someone could feel uncomfortable, and if that was true, that means there should be many many more gay people out there from being reincarnated. But good point, I might think about that one!
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wow! Draco is really makin his point across! Homosexuality is something that just happens......I mean seriously, why would some one... CHOOSE to be a homosexual...I mean they know what sterotypes and mean things can be said about them and i'm sure homosexuals relalize the fact that they are going to be looked differently then everyone else so why would some choose to be a homosexual.It just happens.... You can't help it if you fall in love...even with the opposite sex or same sex...Love is Love...and Attraction is Attraction....
well you know i do know the answer to this one because all my brothers are gay but i'm not so it can't be genitic or i would be to so no it is a choice that is made bye the person not by genitics
rob
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I think the point that needs to be made is that homosexuality happens, for whatever reason, it happens. It's not going away either, why should it? It doesn't harm anyone.
I agree with Cap, people will stare and people will talk but they always will. About ANYTHING. What matters is that you're not treated like a 2nd class citizen based upon sexual preference.
Maybe deep in your being you feel uncomfortable if you WERE usually one sex and now all of a sudden that sex changes to another. Then you wouldn't know why you feel an attraction for the same sex, but something inside you feels not right about being attracted to the opposite sex...Just a thought from what I was reading.
It doesn't work like that. Genetic overlap occurs in twins. If one twin is gay there is a 60% chance that the other twin is. 40% for fraternal twins. Regular siblings is less than 10% because they do not have genetic overlap. You're brothers are extremely anomic. Very rare. Unless they're twins. The genetic sequence just didn't appear in your DNA strand.
And if you ask your brothers if they chose to be gay, they would all say no.
No, what I said was that they choose to act on their feelings. That was my point. That they have a choice whether or not to act on their feelings, just like you have a choice to stay single or not. I'm still not understanding what you're saying about feelings. People act on their feelings all the time, I never said anything about them not having feelings in the first place. I dunno where you got that from. But unless you're an alien or something, you have feelings. Because you're a human being.
Once again, don't get what you're saying.
Evidence? That was your evidence? Again, I think that being gay is a choice. I have met many gay people, and yes I've asked them about this, and they did NOT say that they were born this way. So you speaking for all gays, saying thta they would tell me they didn't choose to be gay, is bogus. Have you talked to all the gays in the world and asked them this question? No I don't think so. But I'm sure there are some gays that say they were born this way, and there are others who say that they weren't.
You saying that Dr. Throckmorton is a fraud is your opinion, not fact. I showed you part of the article that he wrote. Do what you will with it.
I'm still not over the "born with it" thing. If there is something in there genetic make-up that "makes" them have these feelings for the same sex, why is SO hard to find? I read articles after articles. Some say there working on it, some say they found something, some say they haven't found something. I don't get it. If there is something in people's genetic make-up that "makes" them be gay, where is it? Why can't they find it? If it's there, it's there.
Also, if people are "born" gay, are there also people who are "born" straight? That's what makes this born gay thing so puzzling. There is absolutly no proof supporting this hypothesis.
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Exactly! That's what makes this "born gay" theory even more puzzling. If it's truly in genetics, how is it possible for some siblings to be straight and others gay? If they are born from the same parents, and have very smilar genetics, wouldn't they too be "born gay?"
Makes no sense.
btw, this is a thread. Leave my intelligence out of it, because I can say the same for you.
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Last edited by RoguePw25 on Mar 25th, 2005 at 12:21 AM
You're seriously deluding yourself. I'm sorry but this debate is won. The evidence you chose to ignore because A) you don't understand it or B) you don't WANT to understand it. The evidence provided by Bailey and Levay is completely sound. It's been awarded Nobel Prizes for the findings. You choose to debase these findings for some obscure reason. I've already given where the the genetic code for homosexuality is. You act like I haven't posted it. I'm not gonna waste my time with you if you refuse to acknowledge the findings.
Dr. Thorkmarton IS a fraud. He is pending to have his medical license removed because his studies are "unethical and psychologically harmful to the patients" I would rather believe several hundred Ivy League educated scientists rather than this crockpot.
Sorry dude. I respect your opinion. However you just don't get it. Reread everything I typed. My evidence far outweighs your assumptions and bias (which by the way you haven't proven anything). Any casual observer would say my argument makes far more sense than yours. I'm not gonna repost everything if you just ignore it. Which you are doing. Post viable arguments. Scientific evidence. Plausible findings. Not assumptions, not bias, not prejudiced opinions. Actual evidence. You'd be hard pressed to find any.
Once again you completely ignored the twin study, the Chicago study and pretty much everything else. It's not my fault you don't possess any conceptual knowledge of genetics or biology.
It makes perfect sense and anyone who's ever studied heredity at all would know this. Like has been said, genetic overlap for siblings that are not twins is not that much. For the same reason, siblings don't necessarily look alike, either.
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Mar 24th, 2005 09:13 AM
