I bash Eps I and II a lot on these boards, but I still watch them. For instance, I own Attack of The Clones on DVD, yet I still sit and watch Attack Of The Clones when it is shown on sky movies.
Each movie had some truly brilliant Star Wars moments. The duel and the Pod Race in Episode 1 were brilliant, and I love the Tatooine scenes in Attack Of The Clones. The Lars homestead and Tusken slaughter scenes make that movie worth watching, despite the crap elsewhere.
I bash them because they have brilliant ideas, and ALMOST, just almost, get it spot on sometimes, and then they go and ruin it by having stupid scenes, bad lines and too much CGI taking focus away.
and yeah, good one: "around the survivors, a perimeter, create" has to be the worst line of the prequels so far.
That line single handedly turned prequel Yoda into a caracature of himself. That's the sort of thing WE'D say if we were 'doing' Yoda as a joke. It's over-Yoda-ised.
Yoda didn't talk bcakwards so severely in the OT, it was much more subtle. That says it all really - the subtelty has been removed completly from these movies. They are so in-your-face and TRYING TOO HARD to impress, that it just falls flat on it's face.
And because of the fact Revenge Of The Sith looks to be an action packed CGI fest (albeit with a killer story and all), I doubt it's gonna top Empire Strikes Back, although it MAY come close. I hope I'm pleasantly surprised.
I think Episode 3 has potential to be the best of the 6, but instead of worrying about how the new ones suck, just think about how they progressively get better. the Prequel trilogy will never be as good as the OT, but they are wonderful set ups.
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I liked the novel of AOTC. It really made me want to se the film. But that was actually a bit of a disappointment. It seemed they took a bit of bite out of the story, maybe due to quantity of story.... I dunno.
yeah queeq. i was so excited to see the fight betwqeen the home dwellers and the tusken raiders. what with the legs getting cut off and all, but i was dissappointed when they didnt have it. i loved the book way more than the movie even though it too was good.
Hate is a strong word...although greatly dislike would probably cover it. I think it is almost unanimous (I stress almost) even amonsgst those that like the prequels that they have overdosed on CGi to the point of being nausiating in parts. In my view this has ironically undone the very thing that the CGi stuff was meant to do. i.e...bring greater realism to these movies. For the most part much of it feels so fake. Its kinda laughable in a way that when I watch eps 4, 5 & 6 its like a breath of fresh air to see some "real" spaceships on the screen.
That asside... I wouldnt mind the CGi so much if the cartoonish antics of jar jar in the battlescenes hadent made it feel like a pixar toystory style adventure. Some of the other CGi creatures, like that flying character with the little wings (bad physics there...that would never have been able to fly) hadent added to my general annoyance. OK..I'm being picky..but all these things detract from the overall enjoyment of an overly politcal, po-faced, oh-so-serious couple of movies that dont have the same simple spirit of the original movies. George...really..you dont have to explain every damn thing! Sure..put it in the novels..but dont bore us to death on screen with it.
Also...we need characters we care about. Honestly..I simply didnt care who lived and who died in the new movies. Not a single one..well except maybe the droids.
AOTC..have sooo tried to like this film...but the last 2 times I have watched it I've fallen asleep both times half way through. I've only seen the last half of the movie once..and that was in the cinema. Anyway..what was yoda doing giving working light sabres to 5 and 6 year olds in training??? They were all standing so close together and had helmets with blast shields down too! Jeeez!!
The head switching scene with C3pios head..yes funny...but again..very toy-story ish and out of place here. I could go on..but I'm tired...bottom line... George.. talk about missed opportunities.... my fingers and toes are crosssed for episode 3
The OT, in it's old-ness, never ceases to amaze me in that everytime I watch it, it is STILL refreshing.
The PT is po-faced and overly political. The brilliance of the OT was the simplicity of the screen play with a fantastic deep story going on in the background.
The OT's main concern was it's characters, how they interact and the trouble they endure, and in the background was all this amazing galactic battle. Lucas said it himself, he focussed the movies on the two droids, who have an almost tunnel-vision-esque take on the grand epic battle around them. The story was easy to stomach, despite it's deep nature, because the audience unravelled the plot along with the heroes. We saw the story from their perspective.
The PT is the same, but in reverse. There's all this big intergalactic battle, with special effects being thrown in our face, that the character devlopment and plot gets lost in the distance and we are left trying desperately to find them amidst the contrivances. We see the story from an "onlookers" perspective. We can see this character interaction going on, but the whole screenplay is done on a bigger scale. We never feel "on board" with the story because its very hard to latch on to a character and let them take us on a ride.
It has a lot to do with the fact the OT had better flow. The timescale was perfect and didnt stop and judder like the PT does. That's how we managed to latch on to the characters and take in everything about the comprehensive world of the OT. The PT is contrived silliness, and half the exposition and, to be honest, bulls**t could be removed and make the experience more enjoyable.
Last edited by Red Superfly on Nov 23rd, 2004 at 06:49 PM
well..It's been a while since I could bring myself to watch either of the prequels from beggining to end, but after giving them a little bashing on here recently I decided to watch AOTC today to see if my opinion has changed any. I did manage to get all the way through it this time... however...I do feel ill now, I need to lie down
When I have more time,I'll post my reasons for them,but right now since I am pressed for time,I will just say I hate the star wars prequels and that it was a HORRIBLE idea of George Lucas's to make them.However,I dont think they are as bad as Return of the jedi.My least favorite star wars film.The only star wars films I like are A NEW HOPE AND EMPIRE STRIKES BACK.
the SE's should be looked upon as a more complete vision to that what was never possible at the time of creation. you cannot say that Tattooine in the SE is not effective in creating a bustling space port filled with towns people, visitors, space ports and craft. Or that the Hoth Wampa in SE ESB doesn't provide you with a more insightful look into the ferrocity of such a beast, compared to a hand coming across the screen and a close up of a 'rrraarrrr'.
You know, less is more. When I first saw Mos Eisley back in '77, I BELIEVED it was a busy little town. I BELIEVED it! I didn't need more to believe. It worked! It worked the first time! There really was no need to change it.
As for the Wampa. Less is more. I like movies where you don't see the monster, it's only hinted at. I'm only disappointed when they actually show it, and it's laughable. Also, I'm little struck by how gorey that scene is. I'm not opposed to gore, I guess, but it seemed so out-of-place. It seemed over-the-top. Especially in light of Lucas "sanitizing" the stormtroopers getting blasted in the cell block scene. He won't show people getting shot by blasters, but he'll show a monster gnoshing on a tauntaun leg? Ar-unh? Also, this added footage really, badly, altered William's musical score. The whole scene is awkward now.
Annakins origins could have been written in a more original manner while still leaving the mystical enigma intact.
You're dead right. Lucas should've stuck with his original idea of a family of Skywalkers who not only were the discoverers of the Force, but also were instrumental in the formation of the Galactic Republic. Lucas really blew it here for someone so interested in the commercialization of his films. With a whole legacy of Skywalkers, he would have comic books, books, animation, et. al. for years to come!!! The 'immaculate conception' just killed all that. How ironic. (Of course, the answer to this, is that Lucas did this on purpose so that Anakin wouldn't have a dad, and then fans would clamber and cry for a pre-prequel; you know, all Lucas would have to say is "read EU" for all that.)
Sure he wrote the 3 movies but he also relied heavily upon other writing staff to change a good deal of his dialogue and turn his rough draft into a useable script. In that sense, it was always suicide for him to exclusively write and direct the prequels but i guess over the years the Ego has inflated somewhat; so much so that he is totally impervious to criticism
Yeah, I just can't understand why he didn't get a writing committee, a better writer than somebody who wrote for a failed television series. Also, Lucas didn't really "write" for ESB or ROTJ. He threw out concepts and ideas, themes and characters, and a general plot, and the writers put it all together for him.
Well, THX, American Graffiti and ANH are well made films. I don't understand it really...
Oh, it's easy to understand. Doesn't direct or "write" for how many years? Keeps himself insular? Jaded by divorce and failed projects (Willow, Howard the Duck, etc.), jaded by his personal life (unable to produce kids of his own, had to adopt, had to be a single parent). The prequels are products of his out-of-touch demeanor. He had an 'in' an understand in the early years, but now it's not working anymore.
There are just different things in the PT that appeal to me. I, like JP, love the idea of being told the back story and meeting all these characters we'd only heard briefly about. I know that some of the acting is horrible and the directing isn't the best and sometimes the CGI stuff features a little too strongly but that doesn't make me cringe when I watch the films. I love them.
I can't believe you like them after saying all that. Nowadays, films are held to higher standards. Especially Star Wars!! It had quite a precedence, and the prequels should meet that, at the very least, but it should've exceeded it!
As for the CGI. I can be forgiving of CGI... if the STORY IS GOOD! That's where we fail.
I've always wanted to see the Fall of the Republic, the fall of Anakin Skywalker, Jedi mixing it up, even Yoda sitting in his chair in all his wisdom. I really tried to be open-minded about TPM. I had heard about Jar Jar before hand, and tried to ignore it. I honestly, I really tried to put aside all of my preconceptions and expectations. I was actually excited to see it when I went to the theatre, and then, as soon as that scroll... that awful, awful, boring scroll came on the screen, I knew something was wrong, but I swallowed that thought, and continued to watch, and it kept going downhill. It only got good during the pod-race scene, but then I realized it was utterly pointless. We knew... we just KNEW that Anakin would win. So what? What was the big deal? It is a technically beautiful scene in many respects, but it's all noise, signifying nothing, and is a big stumbling block in the entire film.
There are too many things in this film which make NOT work as a Star Wars film. I think if it had NOT been a Star Wars film, a rip-off film, unrelated to Star Wars, I might be okay with it as a film of its own.
The title alone to this film is bad enough. It sounds like "Dennis" should be interjected in the title somewhere.
Anakin is too young. His relationship with Padme is too creepy. Padme tells Anakin, "my caring for you will never end," he gives her a jippor snippet (whatever the hell that is---which doesn't even make a reappearance in AOTC), but later on this movie when Anakin is blasting off in the Naboo Starfighter, she isn't even a bit concerned. Yeah, looks like you really care about him, sweetheart.
Making Anakin a slave is pointless. It really serves no point later on. It's a completely throwaway concept.
There's bad editing. In the scene where Anakin and Qui-Gon are leaving the city, and then the next they're RUNNING!! Running from what? They're just running for no reason. What, they're gonna miss the bus? And, don't tell me about the "DVD's deleted scene" I've seen it, and there was no reason for Qui-Gon to be suspiscious of that robot, but the big, most important thing---it wasn't in the theatrical release!! Where it would've been more important to have that scene.
Jar Jar.... oh, you should figure that I absolutely can't stand him. His character could've been easily written out. I know people will say, "but he brought the Jedi to Gungan City," and I say to that, the Jedi found their way to Theed on their own (some navigator Jar Jar was; not once did he give them directions, just blathered on about fish and being clumsy), they could've found their way to Gungan City.
How did the Gungans transport their kaadus' and other monsters from the city to the surface? Does everyone have to swim down there? I think Boss Nass' nice dress would've dragged him to the bottom of the pond...er... I mean ocean.
Darth Maul was a waste. The duel between him and the Jedi was admittedly cool, but lacked emotion and purpose. The Force fields were like something out of a video game. Anakin's atrocious "whoops" "yippees" and "oops" are just beyond reproach. Him proving himself to be a "great star pilot" by accidently blowing up the Trade Federation ship is such utter poppycock.
I only liked the second one and hopfully I wil llike the third one but the first one sucked big time.I was very disapointed in it.JM
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Hmm..I guess I'll fall into the 'love 'em' category. The PT greatly changes Star Wars, and I'm not as attached to the OT as some of you here, so I guess that goes a long way to liking/accepting the PT. When I first saw the OT like nine years ago, I remember only liking the effects and the battles and thinking that the rest of it was crap. I thought the acting and dialogue, especially, were childish and dumb. (And those are the same complaints people level at the PT nowadays.) Eventually, I began to really love the OT, and every single aspect of it, down to the dialogue. When the PT came along, I never had any problems with the it, except for Jar-Jar, which I think is a concept that missed its mark. But I it amazes me how people could criticise certain aspects of the PT so harshly when the OT is riddled with it.
Anyway, I guess I can see why the PT is less popular. It's very different from the OT in terms of story structure. There is no archetypal hero for the audience to identify with...for instance Luke and Han are archetypal heroes..reminiscent of society's ideal of a hero. Anakin is the PT's hero, but he's a fully mythological character..I admit he is difficult to identify with. I do think that he's a fascinating character though, and he makes Luke look boring *ducks behind computer* ..But I just love the atmosphere of the PT..it's a grey area..the heroes are questionable, the true villians are hidden..it's not an outright good versus evil scenario like the OT. It's more political, and less swashbuckling/action. The thing is, I don't see this as poor story. It's just different to the OT. Even GL said that the PT wouldn't be as popular as the OT before TPM came.
I do think that being very attached to the OT and using that as a definitive version of how Star Wars should be - is the reason that some fans hate the PT. Also, since the OT has been around for so long, people look at it nostalgically..and see it as a part of their childhood and not a film with flaws. I mean, it's the same thing with me and LOTR..I'm attached to the books, and see them as definitive. Which is why I sometimes want to gag when I see the changes made in the film version. That does not, however mean that the LOTR films are bad - far from it. It's just that they carry the baggage of the books. With the Prequels, those films carry the unwieldly baggage of the 'Holy Trilogy'. No wonder it's so hard for them to stand alone or be accepted.
Actually, I know too well about the OT's flaws - doesn't make me like them any less.
The flaws in the OT can be forgiven because the magic is there.
The flaws in the PT cannot because they have so far been a souless pile of dung.
And how Is Anakin any different to Luke? How does Anakin make Luke look boring? They are mirrored characters. They are practically the same character, everyone knows this. Only difference is, that Luke didn't give in to the dark side, while Anakin did. They are similar characters because it's a way of showing how Luke could have become had he given in to hate. It's probably the only function that these prequels actually serve.
The PT could have EASILY been accepted if they were just LIKE the Originals in some form.
The fact that the two trilogies LOOK so different for a start is a major mistake. Lucas can come up with any excuse he likes but as a narrator, changing the visual style is a massive mistake. Star Wars fans were used to a CONTINUITY with the older films, and the PT takes that continuity and wipes its arse with it. Another reason is because the PT has retrospectively re-written some of the Star Wars "laws" such as The Force and introducing absolutely pointless characters like Qui-Gonn Jinn when they should have been focussing on Obi-Wan and Anakins relationship.
People say there's too much CGI. I tend to agree, but I also think it's down to the designers being Star Trek geeks who have never truly understood the visual aspect of the Star Wars films. Sleek, clean designs litter the PT - that's not Star Wars designs, thats Star Trek Anime n00b kids designs!
There are LOADS of reasons why people dislike the PT.
Last edited by Red Superfly on Dec 17th, 2004 at 06:00 PM
You gotta wonder what George was thinking when he wrote some of the dialogue n you gotta wonder what the cast n crew were thinking when they read it, how could nobody go into production without questioning it or thinking "I can't say this, what an awful line"?!
It wasn't as much what the character's dialogue in the prequels that was bad it was the characters themselves.
In the originals they behaved and felt like real people that we grew to like and care about, even Darth Vader. Han Solo is in my opinion the coolest character written, developed and acted in all of Star Wars.
We could nitpick all day about the several flaws n plotholes in all 3 films, but this was the MAJOR problem with the prequels:
I didn't like or care about any of the characters!!
Palpatine the slight exception, only cause of how wonderfully evil he was in Revenge of the sith.
But the rest of them just felt like sterile robots with no sense of humour, common sense or ability to feel or connect with each other. Felt as fake as alot of the CGI backgrounds.
The reason people couldn't question anything is because Lucas owned his own company, as well as Star Wars. Technically they could question him, but they were too afraid to.
Even though Fox distributed the films, Lucas made a deal with them several years ago which practically gave him the rights to everything. That being said, the entire company worked "for George."
Think about it. Who appointed Lucas to direct the prequels? He appointed himself, because he could. He owned the company and the franchise.
Lucas seems like a nice guy, but, I think a lot of people were intimated by him because he wasn't just the writer and director, but also the guy that was practically employing everyone.
If I were employed by someone like Lord Sugar, a self made billionaire, I too probably wouldn't feel comfortable questioning his decisions.
Quite right, and in case of Lord Sugar, the bottom line is: did you make him money?
In case of Star Wars in a way the same question applies, although... by doing SW you KNOW you're gonna makes tons of money. The other question then is: are we making a good movie? And obviously, he didn't.
I wonder though what Claude or Margaret would say if Lord Sugar wasted a couple of million pounds on a business deal he desperately wanted... One to think about...
I'd like to emphasis my point about the characters in the prequels:
A bit like Red letter media did, yes, but let's hone in on the point.
I'll describe these characters without saying who acted them, what they looked like or what their role in the films were:
Prequels and originals:
Lando Calrission: A cool dude, charming, underneath means well, and wants to defeat evil, and shows determination to do good after turning Han over to Vader.
Mace Windu: hmmm monotone hmmm reserved
Princess Leia: a girl determined to defeat the empire, takes no shit from others, doesn't allow herself to be looked down on, never gives up her cause and what she stands for, there for those she cares about.
Padme Amidala: hmmm monotone, gets wooed by creepy men, a plot convenience
Grand Moff Tarkin: believes in Imperial domination, persistant, a stop at nothing, ruthless, no nonsense man.
But I do feel Ford, Hamill and Fisher actually made these characters work. During the PT it seems like Lucas 'fleshed out' these characters by himself. Seeing the making of… shots of him directing, he directs how to stress certain words. Seems more micromanagement than allowing the actors to embody the characters. And that's ho we got these monotone, dull, plot conveniences as characters… Too bad.
The dialogue was part of the problem as well, but yes most of George's acting directing is basically him just telling the actors "Say this line" "Stand there" "Turn away" "Walk over there" without any sort of passion coming across in what he wants nor showing a will to connect with the actors as people, and almost all of the dialogue scenes project in this fashion, like he wants them just to say the lines, get the scenes done in 2 takes and then get on to the action and the CGI effects.
It is my main problem, above everything, with the prequels is the characters. They behaved like boring, air-head space aliens and not real people. We couldn't relate to them.
In the originals you had lead characters you could relate to, connect with and root for. They behaved like real people, their relationships grew like real people, which is why we liked them were emotionally invested in their journeys.
It is the most essential part of storytelling to have a character, or characters, guiding you through the story who you can connect with, care about and root for.
Nov 10th, 2004 07:19 PM
conversion
