NoFate007, BlackC@t said I made an excellent point, perhaps you should see what my point was before commenting. here it is.
"Until Raimi says exactly who the villian is, that description of why the particular Villian was chosen can be manipulated to make it seem like any villian, so it tells us absolutely nothing."
Also you make an interesting point...
"I doubt Raimi will do GG2 because if you repeat villains that quick, its stale and uninteresting. And I think that The Lizard isn't interesting enough to carry a whole movie himself."
Then why would they have bothered setting up for Green Goblin the second at the end of Spider-Man 2, and why would they have given Doc Connors screen time in Spider-Man 2, if neither the Lizard nor Green Goblin the second were going to be in Spider-Man 3. I'm pretty sure if Venom was going to be in Spider-Man 3, we would have seen Eddie Brock on screen by now. There is no evidence to support the idea of Venom, yet plenty to support either Green Goblin the second, the Lizard, or both. So would people stop saying it's going to be Venom. Because Venom introduced in one movie, would suck.
Also...
"Challenge physically - Venom is one of his strongest enemies
Challenge mentally - he knows everything about Parker, and Spider-Man
Someone Peter has a BOND with - ....isn't "bond" the basic overused term with the symbiotes?
A challenge that allows him to grow as a person - He is fighting one of his greatest villains, who is basically a standoff, and he can't rely on his Spider sense anymore for him so he has to think of other ways. He also has to grow as Parker vs Brock, and to save his wife when Brock terrorizes. ALSO, he grows as a person because of the alliance they grow together - Parker knows he won't be able to beat this guy well enough, so he allows him to become an ally, cause "if you can't beat them, join them", and a powerful ally means a safer New York."
Well, Venom would only know everything about Peter, if the symbiote had at one time bonded with Peter. Venom would only be able to by pass Peter's spider sense, if the symbiote had at one time bonded with Peter. If Venom is introduced in the second movie, it is very likely they'll cut out the symbiote ever having bonded with Peter to save time. And then that will suck, and make Venom not as dangerous an enemy as he should be, because he won't have that knowledge, or be able to counter act Peter's spider sense.
__________________ "Every night and every morn,
Some to misery are born.
Every morn and every night,
Some are born to sweet delight.
Some are born to sweet delight,
Some are born to endless night." - William Blake.
maybe they will introduce the symbyote story in no.3 and have a main villain. and in number 4. it could be venom because theyve already covered his history in no.3 and they can explain the carnage story so carnage can be in number 5. sam has allways said he'd at least do 6-9 spidey movies
Gender: Male Location: Huntington Beach, California
You're talking about the comic book not the movies.
Physically the Lizard is superior to both Venom and Spiderman in strength.
The alien symbiote hasn't even been introduced into the series yet. Originally Spiderman found the symbiote on Battleworld during the Secret Wars. Over time the symbiote created a relationship with Spiderman that allowed the symbiote insight into Spiderman's personal life and thoughts.
NONE of that has happened thus far in the movies. Eddie Brock has never had any personal contact with either Spiderman or Peter Parker yet. In the comics Eddie Brock does some shoddy reporting that is exposed by Spiderman...this results in J.J. Jameson firing Brock and essientially black balling him from the reporting world. The Symbiote attempts to bond with Spiderman, Spiderman denies the bond, the symbiote is then removed via a church bells' high frequency noise, where it finds the nearby Eddie Brock. Resulting in the creation of Venom.
So what you're saying is....in a 3 hour movie. You are going to introduce the symbiote, think of a way to give the symbiote to Spiderman, introduce Brock, ruin Brock's career, show Peter struggling with his new found power, deny the bonding of the symbiote, give the symbiote to Brock...and THEN introduce Venom, go into detail about why Venom is Venom, and then have the two battle it out until a stalemate is the result?
Ok....how?
GG2 and the Lizard both stem from characters who have been introduced in the films. Harry Osbourn is Peter Parker's close personal friend, and Curt Connors is not only Peter's professor, but he is also somewhat of a role model. There are much closer ties to both of these characters thus far than ANYTHING that has eluded to a Venom appearance in the 3rd.
When Venom is first introduced he is only interested in killing Spiderman. Venom was defeated 2....ummm...maybe a 3rd time before Venom and Spiderman ever decided to team up...and to this day Venom still harbors hatred toward Spiderman. Assuming they would create some sort of alliance is tantamount to taking a piss on the entire story arc involving Venom.
on another note regarding the symbiote. In the animated series, John Jameson the astronaut from the 2nd movie who's engaged to MJ, goes on a space voyage and when he comes back to Earth, the symbiote is attached to his space ship. Personally, even though it doesn't follow the comic, I think this would be the best way to introduce the symbiote because much of this can go on while Spiderman fills other plot roles like going to school or fighting other crime. Spiderman could end up with the symbiote during the 3rd movie...hell...it could even help him defeat the villain in the 3rd movie. This could help explain the relationship between Peter and the symbiote making the transition into a 4th title starring Venom much much easier.
__________________
Last edited by Linkalicious on Feb 4th, 2005 at 06:38 PM
I posted this in the Official Spider-Man 3 Updates and News thread. Since I doubt you're all going to go digging for it in there, though it's not buried that deep, and I doubt most of you have read it, I'm copying and pasting it. This is my opinion of how the plots for Spider-Man 3, 4, 5, and 6 should be done to do Venom and Carnage as correctly as possible.
"This is how I see the plot for Spider-Man 3 going down, and then the rest of the franchise after it.
We start off with John Jameson going off into space, one of the first things to happen in the movie. We then find Harry fiddling with the Goblin equipment, changing it slightly, either to Hobgoblin, or a more true to the comics Green Goblin costume. We also have Doc Connors working through his resaerch to grow back his arm. At some point he turns into the lizard. Maybe Spidey's fought Harry once or twice before this. Now he also has to deal with the lizard. Harry as the Green Goblin, somehow manages to always show up when Spidey has his hands full with the Lizard. He gets beat up pretty bad, manages to just barely get away from the fight for who knows what reason.
MJ gets really worried about him, doesn't want him fighting both the Lizard and the new Goblin at once, afraid he's going to die. That sort of thing, but he has to help the Lizard, because Peter knows it's really Doc Connors. He's been working on a cure for the Doc since he figured it out. Finally finishes the cure. Goes out to try and find Doc Connors.
At this point John Jameson's space shuttle crashes near Manhatten, a la the 90s Cartoon Series. Peter goes to the rescue as Spider-Man. Gets John out of the shuttle, goes in for the other crew members, as he goes in pumpkin bomb goes off, trapping him under some rubble. He tries to move it but can't. We vaguely see some strange dark shape shifting in the shadows. Harry, whom he doesn't know is behind the Goblin mask walks up then, with that spear like thing Norman had in the first movie, and sounding exactly like Norman says, "Goodbye, Peter."
Peter scrambles to try and get the piece of rubble off of him, but he can't. Harry's standing there over him, ready to strike him down. A few gun shots go off near Harry's head. He turns to see a few cops firing at him. He turns to Peter, "I'll be back to deal with you." Harry goes off to take out the cops.
Just then the dark shape comes out of the shadows, it's the black symbiote. It makes a tentative connection with Peter and tells him it can help him, if he'll let it. Peter not wanting to die, agrees. The symbiote merges with him and he throws off the rubble. The whole thing with the rubble of course to show us that the symbiote makes him stronger than he was before.
Peter and Harry then have their final battle ranging all over Manhatten, Peter really winning pretty easily. Even if/when the Lizard shows up. At some point, Peter is once again in danger of dying, maybe he's in a flaming building or something, hence why the symbiote can't help him. Harry suddenly realizes what he's doing and saves Peter's life. somehow taking a mortal injury himself. Peter unmasks the new Goblin to find out it's Harry. He's shocked. Harry's last words are, "Don't tell anybody." Keeping up the theme of the secrets that Peter must keep that's always been popping up in the movies.
If the Lizard showed up during this last fight, Peter manages to cure him, if not, that waits until the next movie, and the movie is now over. Or maybe it finishes with Harry's funeral.
Now we're on to Spider-Man 4.
If the Lizard issue wasn't resolved in the last movie it's resolved at the very beginning of this one. Or maybe that's the villian through the whole movie. The villian in this movie doesn't matter that much, it could be anyone. What matters is that Peter is wearing the symbiote and we see that he starts getting more and more violent as the movie progresses. I like the idea of the Lizard being dealt with early on, and then another villian or a stream of them being introduced in this movie, that Peter ends up dealing with more and more violently as the movie progresses.
Or it could be he's only dealing with Doc Connors, and it is his increasing violence towards Doc Connors as the Lizard that clues him in to the true nature of the Symbiote, as he doesn't want to hurt the Lizard.
Eddie Brock's hatred of Spider-Man is established in this movie, though perhaps he was introduced on screen in the last. Brock's hatred is the result of a macho moment that Peter has while under the influence of the symbiote, as he catches Brock taking pictures of him as Spider-Man and ruins Brock's film, to ensure his own financial well-being. Peter laments over what he did later on, unsure of why. At some point he realizes that the symbiote is evil. And he starts trying to find a way to get rid of it.
Perhaps he does this with the help of Doc Connors. In the end Peter gets rid of the Symbiote, possibly at the church bell, a la the comics. At the church that night the symbiote comes across Eddie Brock. The symbiote initiates a conversation with Brock. It learns how much Brock hates Spider-Man, and then tells Brock that it hates Parker, and reveals to Brock, that Parker is Spider-Man. Brock starts speaking in terms of "us" and "we".
Just then we get a cutaway of Peter waking up in the Spire and web slinging away to go back home. Then we cut back to Brock and the Symbiote who are now bonding. The movie ends with their bond complete and the birth of Venom.
Now Spider-Man 5.
Now we have an entire movie of Spidey versus Venom, with Venom having been properly established in the franchise with the proper background. Here's what we've all been waiting for, the grudge match. Perhaps we even some how have the birth of Carnage begun in this movie, I don't really care how it happens, or if it does. Movie ends with Spidey beating Venom, and Brock and the symbiote being seperated, and Brock getting locked up. If this is the last movie in the franchise let it end like that. If it's not, have Venom captured earlier in the movie, the carnage symbiote born at some point during his capture, possibly by scientists experimenting with the venom symbiote and trying to find a way to recreate it.
Movie ends with the venom symbiote finding its way back to Brock, and the two of them escaping together. And possibly the carnage symbiote finding a proper host who then also escapes.
Now here's Spider-Man 6, if they go this far.
Certainly here we have the carnage symbiote find a host and then escape to wreak havok on NYC. Spider-Man tries to stop him but he can't. Venom appears out of no where, he tries to beat Carnage can't. Carnage then runs off leaving his two beaten foes behind. Spidey and Venom agree to team up to beat Carnage, but Venom says it has to be on his terms. Spidey doesn't like the idea, but for now he agrees, wishing there was a better way.
They try things Venom's way for a while, but it just doesn't work out, especially because Spidey is reluctant to do things Venom's way. He's still looking for the other way. Suddenly, a la Maximum Carnage Peter realizes what the better way is, we are shown what truly makes a hero, and Spidey manages to beat both Carnage and Venom. And that my friends is the end. If I were Sony, that's how I'd do this franchise. But that's just me."
__________________ "Every night and every morn,
Some to misery are born.
Every morn and every night,
Some are born to sweet delight.
Some are born to sweet delight,
Some are born to endless night." - William Blake.
actualy thats quite a good idea. but number 4 needs a villain and a plot with him/it/she. but i would like it if the venom story is kept there with the villain. but i wont like it if its just explaining venom. put those minor changes in and try and send it to sam of how to do the franchise.
The way I have four right now is important. Because the symbiotes attempt to take over Peter has to be gradual. He has to start out perfectly normal, then gradually be made more violent in his dealings with an enemy over the course of the film. The theme to explore it that movie is exactly the kind of person Peter is, that's he's compasionate and caring. He fights to protect people, not for the self gratification of beating his enemies to a bloody pulp. This movie explores part of what makes Spider-Man a real hero. And as I said, concievably the villian throughout four could be the resolution of the Lizard, basically turning him back into Doc Connors. Or it could be any other villian, obviously the villian needs a good plot and all of that, but the real purpose of the movie is to explore what makes Peter a hero. And that can be explored with any villian at all.
__________________ "Every night and every morn,
Some to misery are born.
Every morn and every night,
Some are born to sweet delight.
Some are born to sweet delight,
Some are born to endless night." - William Blake.
As I've mentioned before in another thread, there is less time to spend on the MJ love plot, and with that time, they can spend focusing on Brock and his relationship with Parker. Much of Spider-Man 1 dealt with getting his powers, and Spider-Man 2 had that big section dealing with losing his powers, so Spider-Man 3 could fill that part of the plot structure with the symbiote suit and his powers changing and whatnot. Start off the movie with a small villain like Shocker or something, and set up the suit and Brock, and by mid movie have Venom. It wouldn't be hard to do. And I don't think Raimi should have to follow the comic book, TV show or anything exactly, so there would be no need to have the wars or anything. He could easily make the first scene the space shuttle crash like in the tv show where he gets the suit, and go from there how he wants.
He said he wanted a villain that will be something new and not seen before. This obviously means we won't be seeing Harry become Green Goblin.
Sounds like a personal thing this one. The Lizard seems as good a choice as any considerring what Raimi said.
The whole "new approach" thing could be that this one could be dark and dank.
I don't want to see Venom. He's so over-rated and bummed up the ass by fans. Venom this, Venom that. I've explained millions of time over why Venom is a bad choice. What Raimi has said about the next villain being something new, something completely different and posing emotional problems, leads to The Lizard.
Venom is just Spider-Man but evil. We'll see a villain doing what Spider-Man does. I doubt anyone would consider this to be "new" and different. It's just Spidey with a slobbering mouth!
Venom actually transforms into his costume - but so does The Lizard in a way. You can't say Venom is any more visually stunning than The Lizard because from an effects standpoint they aren't that different.
Also, Pete would be doing battle with his friend and mentor, Curt Conners. This is about going out and bringing Conners back alive. With Venom, Spidey is always on the defensive. Venom simply attacks and attacks. With The Lizard, Spider-Man has different motivations for tackling the beast.
Then agin - it could still be Harry as Hobgoblin or something, but like Raimi said, a goblin on any kind of glider, regardless of how different the suit is, is still the same thing. Apart from maybe Sandman, there's no other villain other than The Lizard who could bring a brand new set of moves to the table.
IF Venom get used, i see the using the Ultimate Venom version instead.
As for Harry...we might see the HOBGOBLIN while a backstory sets up #4.
Conners becoming the Lizard, would be cool, but not new for the movies with HULK, LXG, Hellboy out there.
My friends and brother believe we will see SANDMAN as a villian.
Me, i just dont want Goblins, or a guy with a Fish Bowl *mystero* on his head
Sam knows the Fans want Venom sooner than later though.
I have a feeling though, the next villian will be a merc hired by Harry to get Spiderman. HEck Harry might even show up trying to be a Hero. I just dont want any more Goblins though.
We have seen Two Mad Scientist turned Evil by a formula, Cybernetics, so whats next...someone turning mad through a Strange Substance of some kind, or raditation.
Heck me might even see the Spider-Slayers show up.
I also hope they cut the MJ love stuff down alot. Its getting abit old to many. Maybe he will marry her and get it over with.
I'm Hoping for....VENOM myself, cause he has the formula of the movies already. Has a relationship with Peter *well they can build on it in the movie*, Eddie meets the Symbiote somehow, is driven insane by it. Together they hate PETER...
The Last Two Villians hated Spiderman, but Liked Peter. The Third might reverse that trend.
I could see them using the Lizard though, cause he has been established, likes Peter, ect...
Here's a novel idea - going by what Mayhem Symbiote said, imagine if Harry actually decides to HELP SPider-Man. He becomes The Goblin, only to help Spider-Man.
This will probably cause a heart attack within the organic web shooter haters out there, but I think it would be ten times more fun and impressive if Harry succumbs to the Goblin madness and manages to over come it, something his father could never do.
I think they should have Harry do something though. It would be great if Harry attacks SPider-Man to begin with, only for Pete to make Harry see sense and by the end, Harry helps Peter and saves him from whatever villain kills him.
Harry would have proven himself to be more powerful than his father ever was. He could die a happy man.
It would be amazingly cool if The Lizard or whatever villain it is, goes to kill Spidey, and then Harry saves the day (in a scene reminiscent of Ben Reilly's last act) but gets killed/mortally wounded himself. That would be seriously cool.
It would bring in a bit of Phil Urichs Green Goblin, who was actually a good guy.
Imagine the end of the movie where theres Harrys funeral, imagine if Dr Conners and Pete were all attending - what would be going through their minds? Both Pete and Conners know they were both responsible for the death of Harry.
It would strengthen SPider-Man even further. He carries on being Spider-Man despite the fact he is suffering terribly. He isn't sure who will be the next to leave him - MJ, Aunt May?
I don't care if it's true to the comics. I want a deep, new fantastic story.
Last edited by Red Superfly on Feb 5th, 2005 at 11:56 PM
I agree with Red Superfly, it would be cool if Harry attacked Peter then started to help out Peter because he didn't let the darkness consume him.
I read in an article that the 3rd was not really going to follow the comics and it would be orginal. I'm fine with that, it doesn't have to follow the comics.
i will love if spider man 3 was made with carnage and venom fighting spider man and harry and then spider man made a new costume the black one then the makers will win millions and billions of dollars please make that kind and then black cat comes and shows spider man how to destroy carnage and rino come and fights black cat
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Feb 4th, 2005 01:07 PM
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