Dude, you're acting as if all they did was find his skills impressive for just his age. That's not the case, they found his ability universally impressive, given they actually asked him to play with their respective bands.
Actually, it does. How much potential a guitarist has (and going by Gideon's example, his potential was likely on the next level) generally determines their improvement rate. Now given how gifted he was at such a young age, add in the decades of improvement, and it doesn't take a genius to work out how incredible he would be now. And he is, and his current technical ability supports that.
This analogy doesn't make sense. Now I haven't been reading the entire argument, and I'm not going to do so, but I'd assume that Gideon is either referring to Neal Schon in his prime, not an 80 year old Neal Schon that has arthritis. Now if that was the case, your analogy would be correct. But that's not the case, so your analogy fails.
Yes he's still technically a great player, but that's all I will describe him as, because that's all I see him as. Technically a great player. To me, that's doing him enough justice, because it's what he is.
Being a guitarist doesn't mean you can't be wrong when talking about other guitarists. Schon factually cannot play as good as anybody, he can't match Vai, Gilbert, Satriani or Petrucci. He can't match Hendrix, he couldn't match Van Halen (Because one of the noteable aspects of Van Halen's career was that he overshadowed Schon, who was revered in the area of commercial rock at the time.), regardless of what Hagar says. He's a decent guitarist, but there are guitarists better than Hagar who say differently, and they are more credible than him.
Schon was on G3 with Satch and Vai and that is proof enough, if you watch the performances, that he can't play "as good as anybody". Maybe creatively Hagar thinks so...but he can't change fact.
He is a guitar extraordinaire, so Brian May is right. There are levels of praise that can be considered too much, though.
That's you making assumptions, which is also what I was doing. We can only speculate on why they asked, I'm just saying not to rule out the possibility of what I said.
Besides, he was spotted at 15 and didn't feature in Santana until he was 17.
Add in the decades of improvement? That's precisely what I mean. He didn't get better, and hasn't been getting better, every single year since then has he? He, of course, improved, but it's not like every year that passed he had improved beyond anything else.
His current technical ability does not match up to how high he is being rated, you are assuming that because he was that good at 14, he simply must be as good as you calculate, and that's stupid.
It doesn't fail. My point is, you don't rate someone based on what they previously were. Maurice Greene was a fast runner, it doesn't mean he'll continually improve, things decline eventually, as Schon undoubtedly has. He isn't at his prime now, he does not play as well as he once did.
Actually, Gregg Rollie and Neal played with Santana when he was 14. At 15, he got the simultaneous offers from Clapton and Carlos, and at 17, the album with Santana was released.
As for the rest - Schon hasn't declined at all. Prove that he has and also prove that he can't play as good as those other guitarists. I don't think you understand that there are many people who can play as good as any guitarist. There are three guys at my high school who played the entire "Surfing with the Alien" album at our talent show.
Just because Schon isn't an innovator like Hendrix or revered for his guitar skills (he was in Journey, for crying out loud) doesn't mean that he can't play their songs or play as well as them.
So he didn't actually contribute anything of value until he was 17.
Again, you're dodging my question. I don't have the burden of proof, you do. You're the one claiming that Schon can play as good as these people, so prove it. I find it hard to believe that three guys at your high school did that, even less inclined to believe they did it with any kind of accuracy.
When I say "declined" I don't mean the man is shit now. He's not as good as he once was, is he? No. Hence decline.
I know it doesn't mean that, but the sheer fact that you are suggesting Schon plays as well as Hendrix is something that doesn't even warrant debate. It proves how much you overrate him. Jeff Beck couldn't even cover Hendrix successfully.
You are a biased Neil Schon fan, yet you deny that. Your title is "KMC's Journey Fan." for crying out loud.
What makes you jump to that conclusion? While we're throwing out assumptions, of course.
And while we're at it, your beloved site ranks Schon at 23rd.
1. Jimi Hendrix.
2. Eric Clapton.
3. Jimmy Page.
4. Jeff Beck.
5. Eddie Van Halen.
6. Stevie Ray Vaughan.
7. Joe Satriani.
8. Ritchie Blackmore.
9. Steve Vai.
10. David Gilmour.
How do you know that that is the case, Alpha? I can provide you with an example, incidentally, involving Journey. Journey "moved on" without Perry officially in 1997, because he sustained a hip injury while hiking in Hawaii, and didn't get surgery in a fashionable amount of time. He was replaced by Steve Augeri, and Steve Smith (Journey's long-time drummer) was replaced with Deen Castronovo. Yet, the band didn't produce another album 'til 2001. Does that mean that Augeri and Castronovo "didn't contribute anything of value" for four years? No.
It is illogical and rather out-of-place to naturally assume that Neal didn't contribute anything of value because Santana waited three years to have him on the album.
Actually, to be technical, Sammy Hagar is the one who claims that Neal Schon is as skilled as "anybody else", and he has two advantages on the both of us: a.) he is a guitarist and b.) he has played with Neal for years, and is thus more familiar with how Neal plays than either of us (yes, Alpha, that includes you).
Next, I don't know what it is with you and the cynical belief that you naturally don't believe someone when they speak of something that contradicts your opinion, but I'm sorry. This belief only furthers the idea that you don't play the guitar, because you seemingly have no clue that there are indeed people in the world who can play as well as people such as Hendrix or Clapton or Vai, and they are not famous. All it takes is practice. Those guys who played the "Surfing with the Alien" album did quite well, but you don't have to believe that.
First, Alpha, I think it's obvious that my familiarity with Neal Schon and Journey happens to be miles and miles ahead of your own; Schon was constantly held back and restrained in Journey because of Perry and Cain's pop-themed songwriting tastes. He was restrained in Bad English by Jon Waite and Jonathan Cain (again). In Hardline? They opted for the hair-metal/commercial taste (Schon was big on making money), though he was able to "cut loose" in a lot of their songs.
The fact is, in terms of live performances, Schon is miles ahead of his younger days. Perry is now gone, and Cain is more complacent. I've read interviews with Neal where the band admits that they are no longer one of the most famous acts in the world, so they can basically do whatever the hell they feel like. Which is why Neal simply is outstanding live, because it's his show. He is still one of the quickest guitarists around, and can play three-hour concerts with no trouble whatsoever.
So, in conclusion, I (and the band itself) is of the mind that Schon has only improved with age.
That's what I'm saying. If you can play someone's material, then you are as skilled as they are in terms of technical ability. For their Generations/30th year anniversary tour, Neal Schon played Hendrix songs, as well as the National Anthem. When I saw him, he played "Voodoo Child" (sp?).
Schon can cover Hendrix material.
I'm denying that?
I could just as easily say that you're an "anti-Journey" advocate, hence why you constantly dismiss their achievements. I'm sorry, but facts are facts, no matter how badly you'd like to interpret them. Joe Blow down the street, with enough practice, can play any Hendrix song or any Schon song or any Jeff Beck song you can name.
Because, you don't seem to understand that you don't have to be a "revered guitarist" to be a good one. There are people in this world who haven't made albums or who are up-and-coming musicians who can play as well as any Hendrix or any Vai.
You don't have to be Hendrix to play a Hendrix song lmao, and you seem to operate under the delusion that you simply have to be Eddie Van Halen to play an Eddie Van Halen song, or Jimmy Hendrix to play a Jimmy Hendrix song, or whatever. That isn't the case.
Ok, perhaps "of value" wasn't the right term, I meant noteworthy. Santana III was his first noticeable work.
You're correct, of course. He knows more about Schon than me, but the fact is, there are guitarists better than Hagar on a technical level (Which isn't actually that hard, the man isn't astounding.) who wouldn't put Schon as high up as you do.
Schon is revered and rightly so, I'm just saying I think you overrate him.
Because I don't believe baseless claims that I find unbelievable. If you had said "I did a badass cover of Smells like Teen Spirit." I'd have no problems believing you.
I know there are people in the world who can play difficult things. There are guitar magazine writers who perform Eddie Van Halen things on free giveaway CDs, the point is, they either play it in a way that lacks something, or the technique isn't exact. Eruption isn't impossible, but you won't ever hear it played as flawlessly by anyone besides Van Halen.
There are technically better guitarists than Hendrix, he was the best in more important ways, but regardless, I don't take it as face value that some high school kids played Surfing With the Alien.
I can't act like you don't have more of a Journey knowledge than me on the whole, but I know enough of them and Schon to comment, I hope that you would at least understand I'm not the kind of idiot to comment on a band if I didn't know about them.
Quick doesn't mean much. Again, I'm not denying that Schon is technically a great guitarist, which seems to be your belief.
But he won't continuing improving with age, age DOES slow you down. He may be a better guitarist overall, but I'm willing to bet there are things he can't do now that he could do when he was younger.
There are guitarists that can play Hendrix, of course. I wasn't aware that was what you meant. I just meant it doesn't make them as GOOD.
Whether he covers it well is another story, and my point.
I'm not an anti-Journey advocate at ALL. I'm not dismissing their achievements, I just realise when and where they do and do not matter. Kiss are the biggest selling gold album band ever, is that big? Yeah. Matter? No.
You cannot factually say that there are people as good as Vai out there. I can't say there isn't, but I wouldn't say either. It's too presumptuous either way.
My whole point was that Schon being able to LITERALLY play Hendrix is impressive, but successfully? That's a different matter. We got confused.
Of course you don't, it appears we got crossed wires.
Of course there are people who play Hendrix or Van Halen LITERALLY, but nobody can play Voodoo Child like Hendrix can, or Eruption like Halen. All the best guitarists leave their mark so that it echoes through the ages.
Add to the fact that Van Halen and Hendrix innovated in ways that Schon did not (Not that it takes away from him.) and you have even less chance of their sound being replicated. Especially Van Halen who used to boil his strings in water or some shit.
Just to summarise, as we got a little confused. I'm not saying Schon can't play certain songs LITERALLY, I'm talking more about execution and the end product.
My point is this: on a "technical" level, any decent guitarist can play a Jimmy Hendrix song, a Steve Vai song, or a Neal Schon song. They may not be famous for it and they might not make a career off of it, but it is a common fact. Neal Schon is a huge Jeff Beck fan, and admitted on a TV interview (supporting Journey's 1986 'Raised on Radio' album) that, as a teenager, he learned to play a vast majority of Beck's "arsenal" of music simply by listening to it.
You must not play the guitar, nor have you ever actually "seen" a decent guitarist cover someone else's songs. I have seen countless of people - both at my school and various clubs across my state (they actually have decent guitarists in Kentucky, lol, go figure) cover Cream, Santana, Journey, Van Halen, Hendrix, and Steve Vai on multiple occasions, and cover it extremely well. Once you learn how to play, you can replicate the exact sounds and patterns of the original guitarist. If you pay attention to detail, you can make it sound identical. This is a fact of life, and any guy who is skilled with a guitar can do it. If they can replicate the same feats, then on a technical level (perhaps not on an innovative level) they are no less skilled than the musician who played the song the first time.
But it's clear that I'm not going to change your opinion, and you're not going to change mine. Best just to agree to disagree.
Edit: And, just to clarify - as usual - I am debating on technical level. Not innovation. Not noteriety. Sheer "playing" ability. His fretwork. Neal Schon is no less (nor is any real guitarist) than a Hendrix or a Van Halen. Now, if you wish to compare the difficulty or noteriety of the music they played - insofar as Journey solos compared to Van Halen solos - then you have an argument. But, as I've said before, that doesn't detract from Schon on any level. The man, truly is, one of the greats. You can claim that I am overrating him, but as someone who has seen Schon perform three times live (and countless times on Youtube), I can safely say that. Several friends of mine who play the guitar consider him to be an extraordinary and uncommon musician. The best? Hardly. But certainly beyond "above average".
Last edited by Gideon on Apr 6th, 2007 at 03:54 AM
A) "Jimi", and yes, that kind of mistake does matter.
B) You're wrong there. It takes more than a "decent" guitarist to play stuff like Eugene's Trick Bag or the All Along the Watchtower solo. Even the best guitarists in the world can't play the latter with a great effect as Hendrix, and you won't find many who can even pull off Eugene's Trick Bag, let alone do it well.
I'm not saying that songs by these artists are untouchable and impossible to learn, but you're not giving them the proper respect.
No, I just respect that not any Joe Nobody can play guitar decently and crack out a Steve Vai lick. No "decent" guitarist could play Midnight by Joe Satriani, hell, there probably aren't many exceptional guitarists that could. There is a reason these people are hailed as they are, Gideon. It's not because they are easy to learn.
Nobody has ever replicated Jimi Hendrix exactly, and you're out of your mind for saying so. Jeff Beck couldn't even do it. There is something about the way he played and what he played that stops people from pulling it off exactly, that's precisely why he's as revered as he is, because he is the best. If everybody could do the same, he wouldn't be, would he? Eddie Van Halen's tone is specific to him because nobody sets up their guitars the way he does. Who boils their strings and then leaves them in the Sun? Nobody besides Van Halen, or if they do, they got it from him.
Learning an existing song is one thing, creating it is another. That's why Hendrix, Vai, Satch, Gilbert etc are above Schon. He may very well have the ability to play some of their stuff, but he couldn't write it, and he certainly couldn't play all of it.
Have you ever had a good listen to Steve Vai, Paul Gilbert or Joe Satriani? I've heard enough of Schon to speak about him, but it doesn't seem like you can say the same of people that are better than him. These guitarists are more revered than Schon for technique, it doesn't make Schon any less of a guitarist to say "He's not as good technically as Paul Gilbert.". There are maybe two who are.
Fair enough.
Of course he's beyond average, I'm simply saying that being able to play some stuff by the best, technique-wise, doesn't make you the best technique-wise. It just makes you very able on a guitar.
Precisely; he managed to play Beck songs without aid of actually reading the notes. My point is that any decently skilled guitarist can quite easily replicate the music of any famous guitarist. I've seen it dozens of times.
Yes it is. Have you ever heard of Tribute bands - and I'm not talking about the "tributes to Van Halen" per say, but a tribute/cover band? They do it all the time, and I have seen a plethora of these cover bands in the past three years to see that they can replicate - notice how I say replicate - the music of the band that they are paying tribute to. I've seen a Led Zeppelin tribute band, a Journey tribute band, an AC/DC tribute band, and the list goes on, and these are simply local acts within the state of Kentucky and nearby Tennessee.
They replicate the exact solos to a nearly flawless degree. Now, I'm not saying that they could simply jam to the degree that a Schon, Page, or Young could - but they can replicate their sounds and their music.
KMC Community Forums
Apr 5th, 2007 10:09 PM
