Gender: Male Location: I'm not giving my name to a machine
Johnny 5, Robocop, Zed, Borg, that cheesy movie with the cyborg cops... and the one is a criminal and breaks his programing and takes over all the cyborg cops... History has proven this!
__________________ Originally posted by -Pr- a great big penis.
Gender: Unspecified Location: Speedblitzing around the universe f
It would be foolish to give his Doombots the exact same tech Doom himself uses and not add some additional means of control. But the fact that Doom can add controls and inhibitors means that Doom could safely give a Doombot all of his tech and not have to worry not being able to stop his own creation. See what I'm saying? Doom is confident enough in the dampeners that he can give a Doombot everything he has without having to worry about the consequences (though he miscalculated when he doubted himself in front of the Doombots and they all rejected him as a result).
But you're right, there's no direct evidence for or against it. You believe that Doom's personality is such that he wouldn't share his tech with his Doombots. I believe Doom's personality is such that he would. I think we undestand each other's arguments here and either choose to or not to accept it. There's probably no point in debating the point further.
Wroooooong. The X-men superhero outfit IS body armor. And it CAN take gunfire. The FF can too, actually, because they use the same suits. I've proven this as both the FF and the X-men have said this...why argue the point? I told you how Charlotte Jones herself uses it instead of a bulletproof vest because, in her own observation, it's infinitely better. And a cop would know a thing or two about that.
Indeed. I said that. But a head shot isn't an easy thing to do to a moving target, especially one as wily as Storm. From behind fog and high winds.
Sure, he can fly out of it...as she flies into it. "Where'd she go?" *wham*
It wasn't a Doombot's gauntlet. It was Doom. That was never retconned, and that's why Doom remembers the life-saving.
I didn't mistype the analogy...I modified it on purpose.
The point I'm trying to make is, it has nothing to do with how MUCH power. It has everything to do with the TYPE of power. If I were to go to a cosmic power wielder and say, "Using your cosmic force blast, jumpstart that man's heart", the cosmic power wielder would be unable to do so with the cosmic force blast, no matter how powerful it is. Now, if I were then to go to Storm and say, "Using your electricity blast, jumpstart that man's heart", with just a liiiiitle bit of power, the man springs back to life.
My point? It's not always about the level of power involved....it's about what the power does. Storm's electricity has proven on two occasions to overload and disable Doom's technology. Once on a Doombot and once on Doom himself. That's a pretty good track record. And yes, even better than Thanos or Galactus. But electricity will do that for you.
She wouldn't need to. The reason why electricity seems so effective against Doom's tech is because, well, it's tech. It's metal and circuits. And they're notorious for conducting electricity, since that's precisely how it works.
Let's go with another analogy here. Who is capable of greater energy projection, Sue Richards or Odin? I think just about EVERYBODY will say Odin. And yet, Odin, with Destroyer Armor, the lifeforce of all of Asgard and the powers of several other skyfathers, was unable to lay a hand on the Celestials.
Sue singlehandedly destroyed Exitar.
Does that mean that Sue has greater power than the Destroyer with all of Asgard and several skyfathers? Of course not!
So how was it possible?
As it turned out, Sue's power comes from a source that feeds Celestials and must maintain a certain balance to keep them coherent. The *nature* of her power was such that Exitar was completely screwed in its presence.
The same principle applies here - in order for robotics to work, the metal must be tied to the circuitry. In order for the circuitry to work, it must have a certain balance of electricity flowing through its currents. If that balance is upset, the circuitry burns out and is destroyed. Because everything is connected and everything conducts electricity, an electricity bolt will carry through to the circuitry itself. Storm wouldn't *need* to target it. Does that make sense to you?
Right. What I'm saying is, that wasn't the armor he was wearing - that's armor he retrieved. I didn't say it was specifically for Doombots. I imagine that, like Tony Stark, Doom will often built new armor with new technologies. He probably doesn't actually don it until it's ready. Then he switches armor. He probably had that armor in the lab, had been tweaking it over the months or whatever, then when the fit hit the shan, he went in and got it because he needed to to gain the advantage over the Doombot. If his default armor was superior to the Doombots armor, he wouldnt have need to go into his little toychest and pull out the updated armor.
She diabled Doom's gauntlet because, as she said, she needed to talk to him. Wouldn't do any good to mess up his whole suit. She just didn't want the whole thing to become a fight just because she showed up. If she could take out his gauntlet, I'll wager that that's not the only thing she could take out.
I'll agree that she probably wouldn't kill Doom, but I disagree about the killer instinct part. She's admitted in the past that, like Wolverine, she has a killer side to her that she keeps in check from years of surviving on the streets of Cairo. She explored a little bit more of her ruthless side recently during her solo mini. If it came down to it, she can get nasty.
But all this is beside the point - she wouldn't have to kill him to overload his shields and disable his offensive systems. She'd do that, Doom would shake his fist at her, then she'd leave.
But we're not comparing shield tech. We're comparing Doom's artificial shield to natural (so to speak) shields by people like Phoenix and Magneto and Unus. Intelligence doesn't matter, because the only "maker" of the latter shields is, well, god (TOAA or whoever).
People like Apocalypse, Magneto, Nimrod and Fury might take issue with that. But that's another debate.
COULD, you just used the key word. Could. Obviously they have to be formidible to fill his role and he may very well give them near equal tech. The point I'm making is that to me, it seems a bit out of order to rule Doom out of keeping his best stuff for himself. You've said yourself (and as we all know) he's ego driven. He's not gonna let his best work fall into the hands of his creations. This all comes down to whether you believe he gives them the same tech or not. You do, I don't.
Yeah but heroes say alot of things that aren't necessarily true when put to the test. When the X-Men had a scrap with a group of militants (who's name I forget) they hid behind cover during the firefight. If they had bulletproof costumes (which they don't) they wouldn't have. I don't believe they have bulletproof costumes at all. In all my years reading X-Men and F4, that never came across.
High winds don't affect you if they're not touching you. Doom's shield will see to that. Fog can only go so far as his shield. The only thing worse than Doom firing with care is Doom firing wildly. Again though, you assume he's just gonna get stuck in this fog.
Wham what? Why is it ok for Storm to land hits on Doom, someone infinitely more wiley than she is, yet Doom can't hit her with a blaster?
Doom saved her life. The Doombot was the one that trapped her in the cash and tortured the X-Men if that's what you're referring to. If you're not, then the other time was when they had a "thing" for each other. She zapped him unaware while he was tending to something else and it didn't do much but disrupt his gauntlet. So as proven, even with his shield down, she can't do much.
Once that electricity hits Doom's suit, if it hits Doom's suit, he will use it better than she can. So if anything, using electricity won't benefit her. Her electricity isn't like a lightning strike, it's not that fast. So Doom can easily protect himself and even if she did choose to summon some kind of Storm she'd need A) Time and B) To be able to do it without Doom noticing and raising his shield. The former she won't have the the latter she won't be able to do.
Doom knows how to work his suit better than anyone and he purposefully charges it with thousands upon thousands of volts sometimes. If you really need to get into amps and everything like that, it's proving my point. When is that ever going to matter? They'd meet and they'd fight. They'd attack each other. In which case Doom has alot more ways of winning than Storm. I still see it as a mismatch. I don't think she has a chance.
It makes perfect sense but what I am trying to say and have been pointing out is that Doom's circuitry isn't your average electrician stuff, we both know that. It's not as simple as sending a power surge through his suit, because he does that to himself. He has complete control over all the circuits in his suit so he can surely manipulate or configure them if something is going awry. It may look like a chicken wire, but that aint a chicken wire man.
You are assuming he needed to though. How many times has Tony Stark fought enemies like Titanium Man and The Crimson Dynamo in Armour Wars, that he could EASILY beat with his normal armour? Many. He used new armour as an excuse to "test it out" in a heavy situation. He didn't NEED it to beat them, he CHOSE to use it. You are assuming he needed it, whilst I believe he wanted it.
Exactly. If she did that to start a fight he would have melted her face off because the gauntlet was still operational. It wasn't destroyed.
Yeah and Doom starts out like that. If it came down to whose gonna kill first, who's nastiest. Doom will always win because he's an evil, selfish, ego driven man. Claiming to have a killer instinct is fine and dandy but whether she wanted to or not she couldn't kill Doom. If she wanted Doom dead she would be disappointed. If Doom wanted her dead she'd be hanging in his trophy wing by the time the sun rose.
Doom wouldn't allow it to happen again. She didn't do it in a fight anyway. In a fight situation she would never be able to do it like that. Doom wasn't trying to fight her. If it was a fight, he's be trying to win and he would do so against Storm.
You asked me what put Doom's shield over anyone else. I said his mind to which you asked "Why?". I told you. Yes they have natural shields due to their mutant powers but Maurice Greene has extreme speed, naturally also. He can run way faster than Doom. However, if Doom so chose, he could invent something to turn him into a Flash-esque human if need be. Natural or artificial, if you have a mind great enough, you can surpass natural with artificial. I believe Doom has done so, as do most of the MU.
Gender: Unspecified Location: Speedblitzing around the universe f
This will be my last post until the next flare up, lol. So I guess you get the last word...
I think we have two different visions of what he'd do out of ego. You believe that he's so ego-driven that he'd never let his tech be used by his Doombots. I see that kind of behaviour as being more paranoia. My view of it is he's so ego-driven that he could give his Doombots all his tech and know that his superior mind is what prevents them from ever being a threat. Guess we'll have to ask Doom, lol.
Well, in real life, cops all wear bulletproof vests. They don't go walking out in the open in a gun fight because of it, though. You take cover because there are still parts of you exposed...and because it's smart.
If you have ready access to your collection, read the X-men during the Outback years, when their primary enemies were the Reavers (who were pretty gun happy). It's mentioned repeatedly, mainly because of the aforementioned gun happiness. More recently, one of the replacement X-men were shot and thought they were dead. Jean pointed out to them that because of the unstable molecule costumes, they're effectively bulletproof...so they could get up now.
Fog essentially becomes a line of cover. She can use it to obscure his light of sight, or use it to cover herself. And she can multi-task by working on that pesky shield while Doom is trying to track her.
Doom is reliant on aim, which is made more difficult by the fact that she's a moving target and that he's trying to see through fog. Storm doesn't need aim. She sees him, she commands lightning to hit him.
Right, I'm referring to the latter, when the real Doom saved her life. She zapped him and *disabled* his gauntlet...he couldn't use it after that. The Real Doom. And if you look at it, it wasn't close to a full force attack, either. But yeah, she caught him unawares, which is why I don't consider it a fight, just a demonstration of what she could do once she overloads or bypasses Doom's shield.
???? You're saying some light speed is faster than others?
Remember, Storm doesn't need a storm to summon lightning. She can summon it instantly. Storm conditions are *almost* instantaneous. That's why I said before that Doom's best chance is the first moments of the fight. If he can't nail her right there (and maybe he could), then I can't see Doom winning.
Doom "overcharges" his suit. I think the whole concept was started by someone else on this thread. There's really no such thing, and the concept, as explained, has nothing to do with his ability to deal well with lightning. When you charge an electronic device, you're simply feeding the battery systems. But Doom's suit is said to be nuclear...it wouldn't need charging (or "overcharging"). So one concept or the other is bogus. Either way, charging the power source of the suit and pounding the surface of the suit with electricity which spreads to the circuitry and disrupts it are two different things.
I disagree. But I think we already knew that, lol.
Indeed, but the principles of electronics are such that no matter how brilliant you are, if a wire carrying electricity exceeds its capacity, then it's going to stop working. If the balance is thrown off, it's going to stop working. Like his gauntlet. Or his Doombot's shield. I can understand you saying that he'd reserve the best tech for himself, though I don't agree with it, but do you honestly think that would include giving himself circuitry that can't be overloaded while giving his Doombots circuitry that can? It just doesn't make enough sense - ego or not, who's going to put that much effort into making lifelike AI clones and then give them fundamental circuitry that is prone to things that you KNOW how to get around? Why make your own weapons system prone to being disabled if you invented circuitry that is somehow immune to being overloaded? Doesn't add up.
Gender: Unspecified Location: Speedblitzing around the universe f
ok, technically, THIS is my last post on the thread, lol. But it doesn't count, I ran out of room on the other thread...
Doom's whole castle and country was under grave threat and he's going to whip out some new, untested armour for sport???
ok, it's like this - we're not Doom and not the writers of these storylines, so we can only guess what Doom's motives are for certain things. That said, knowing that there's some young, cloned usurper to your throne hanging around, knowing there are multiple Doombots who think they're you and who are willing to attack you, and knowing that there's essentially a bounty for your head that forced you to flee your own castle in the first place, and you whip out an advanced armour from your toychest, which is a more likely reason for doing so:
a) Because he needs all the advantages he can get since the Doombot tech and his current tech are virtually identical (my reasoning) or:
b) Because now would be a GREAT time to try out some untested armour and use it! (your reasoning)
No, because if she came to start a fight and didn't go for his weapons system, he'd be shooting at her. So she was smart and took out the weapons system first. It was disabled...he couldn't use it anymore.
Assuming he starts the fight with his shields up, she couldn't immediately take out his weapons systems like that. But in all my readings of Doom's appearances, he almost NEVER starts with his shields up. For whatever reason, few characters do. Magneto doesn't, Sue doesn't, Jean doesn't, Juggernaut doesn't....
If he does put his shields up in the beginning, well, then see all the other shield overloading/bypassing stuff we've been talking about without resolution for the last 40-something pages.
Perhaps, but because they've all had a 100% success rate, it's impossible to ever really know. You go by faith in Doom. I leave shield strength comparisons as inconclusive, because none of them have yet reached their upper limits of stress. It's like, "How strong is Hulk exactly? Infinitely?" "How strong is Destroyer exactly? Infinitely?" "How strong is Doomsday exactly? Infinitely?" "Who is the strongest of the three?" Who can say?
I don't see why we're still going. I know what you think, you know my opinion. As right as I think I am, as stupid as I think this match is, you're never gonna agree and I'm not trying to make you. So therefore, I'm going to quote that which I choose to reply too, not the whole post.
I will do that, I remember it though. It was down to situation and testing. It wasn't regular if I remember, but I'll check.
Yeah but alot can happen in that time. It's not as easy as that. If it was we wouldn't be here. I believe Doom would take her out rather quickly, for reasons stated.
If she's A) Still alive by then and B) Can do that anyway. Like I said, I don't believe jolts of electricity are gonna do anything to Doom.
I can, because you clearly believe fog is more effective than I do. I don't think fog is going to stop Dr. Doom. It won't, infact. Bulletproof suiting won't save her, fog won't save her, weather won't save her in a fight against Dr. Doom. She would be fighting Dr. Doom, put it in perspective. She just cannot beat him if it was a fight.
My point still stands, it's energy. Any energy coming into his suit becomes part of the system. A system that Doom controls.
You are making the assumption as to exact tech though. None of us know the wiring he uses.
The point is this, he cares more about himself than he does about his Doombots. There, that's the point. When you spell it in black and white it's easy to see (and see through the comics) that he saves the best for himself. Whether you like that or not isn't my problem.
Well obviously I think B being that A was just an avenue that you want to display your point with. It's not ever gonna be a reason for his doing so with the armour.
C) B with the addition that it WAS a heavy situation and he just so happened to have an armour that would make an already solveable situation, easier.
You'll disagree but it's probably the more likely. If you wanna take out a piece of wood, you can hand saw it but if you have a chainsaw you'd use that. Same result but faster.
Doom is also a diplomat, is a solution can be reached and he doesn't have to bother fighting, he won't. You know as well as I do he wasn't going to attack her and that he clearly didn't care about what she did. If he wanted to fight her he'd have stopped her from affecting him.
I've seen it. I was involved. You know my opinion on it.
As for the strength thing, there is a big difference between having a limit not reached, or know EXACTLY, but known to exist and having NO limit.
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Mar 26th, 2005 07:18 PM
