i have a comic issue that says wolverine was enhanced so that he couldnt be detected by radar but ill change the fights to wolvie vs cap colossus vs ironman and jean vs thor
It would be a glorious battle, one that I would pay obscene amounts of money for an issue of, but the X-men would win.
Wow, now I REALLY want to see this fight. It would be incredible.
Wolverine vs. Captain America.
Colossus vs. Iron Man
Jean (Probably Phoenix or else that would've been a poor comparison from the beginning) vs. Thor.
-This one definitely a battle of the gods right here.
It would be glorious, simply beautfiul. I would give my first born child to see this fight take place.
Thor is the deciding factor here. That's why the Avengers will win.
__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Ultimate Ironman is pretty weak tho, class 10 streangth compared to his mainstream counterpart that should be class 70 or 80 at least
a what the hell append with Thor vs Colossus? Ultimate Thor put Ult. Hulk on his ass who is stronger so than his mainstream counter part but get's roughed up by Ult. Colossus?
Ult titles are interesting read's but shouldnt be referenced unless its a Ult. Specific thread. the characters are waaaay different the mainstream
Gender: Unspecified Location: Speedblitzing around the universe f
It's probably unfair to go with the most powerful version of Jean and not the most powerful version of Thor.
It's like this:
weakest Jean vs. weakest Thor = weakest Thor
average Jean (Jean as written in 80% of her run) vs. average Thor (80% of his run) = average Thor
high Jean (Jean as written in GM's run, and in certain parts of Kelly's run) vs. high Thor (old school Thor that drove back Galactus, Ego, etc.) = King Thor
higher Jean (Phoenix Force) vs. higher Thor (Jurgen's King Thor) = King Thor
max Jean (Dark Phoenix) vs. max Thor (Oeming's Rune King Thor) = Dark Phoenix
But, most recent Jean (Morrison's Jean) vs. most recent Thor (Oeming's Rune King Thor) easily goes to Thor.
So....take your pick, but you should probably be fair about it.
We are goin with the most powerful versions thats why i said king thor in my post. Morrisons jean the phoenix of the white crown would obliterate thor. Dark phoenix was actually jean. Its the same person. Thats how it was originally intended and thats what it has now reverted to. Id luv to see any incarnation of thor survive a head on collision with the sun
Gender: Unspecified Location: Speedblitzing around the universe f
Morrison's Phoenix of the White Crown? Which Pheonix storyline did the White Crown business appear in? Jean was powerful in Morrison's run, but she still got eaten up by people like Cassandra, and Xorneto.
Morrison's Jean reminded me a lot of Claremont's early Jean-Phoenix - great offensive power, but somewhat limited stamina. that was how Magneto was able to take advantage of her and win. King Thor can likewise take down Morrison's Jean.
Also (and this is going to lead to an extended discussion, since this topic always does) - how do you reconcile the fact that Dark Phoenix, who you say was Jean the whole time, died on the moon with the fact that Jean's body was in stasis on the bottom of the ocean the whole time? How do you reconcile the fact that Jean and Phoenix are one and the same with the fact that in Endsong, the Phoenix Force exists independently of Jean and resurrected her body and occupied it. How do you reconcile the fact that Jean and Phoenix are one and the same with the fact that the Phoenix Force is now said to be able to occupy any Omega level mutant? How can they be one and the same?
"that was how Magneto was able to take advantage of her and win"
Actually that battle happened in mags base very shortly after jean had saved the multiverse from the M'Kraan crystal and she exhausted herself. Jean then subconsciously capped her powers and rejoined the xmen. Thats how mags beat her because she was owning him and then the fact that she hadnt recovered from her previous expenditure plus the bottlenecks she'd placed on her power allowed him to gain the upper hand after she hesitated. If u read uncanny xmen you'll know this to be the case.
how do you reconcile the fact that Dark Phoenix, who you say was Jean the whole time, died on the moon with the fact that Jean's body was in stasis on the bottom of the ocean the whole time?
Basically jean is and always has been the phoenix demi.
The Jean in Here Comes Tomorrow was the 616 Jean Grey that died in Planet X. She died in Planet X so that she would be reborn in that future so that she could perform her destined "disinfection" that was foretold throughout New X-Men.
Yes Wolverine and all the other characters were possible future versions of their 616 selves but that is only because Jean cut away that future.
You see because Jean ascended to the White Hot Room which is beyond conventional time and space- the Here Comes Tomorrow story still happened to HER. She still lived and experienced it!
From her god-like state as the White Phoenix of the Crown-- she was able to manipulate the 616 time and space to reverse time back to right after her memorial so that she could change Cyclops' response to Emma. So Jean's experience and current form as the White Phoenix is a part of current continuity.
Though that doesn't mean that Jean might not resurrect herself in the corporal 616 reality through her original body or even a new body for herself through a Phoenix Egg in the future.
Jean as the White Phoenix can return to life according to the first story that she appeared as the White Phoenix in Classic X-Men #43 backstory? Have you read that story? That story also explains that the real Jean had been the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix btw. Claremont tried to use his backups to de-retcon the '86 retcon.
Morrison's White Hot Room seems to be a synthesis of Claremont's afterlife in Classic 43 and Claremont's view of the inside of the M'Krann crystal as the nexus of realities.
Anyways it is a shame to deny this story to Jean. Especially since many of its elements such as the aspects of the Phoenix Egg and incubation, her genetic mutation that makes her a Phoenix, her mental link to the Phoenix Consciousness, and her status as the White Phoenix-- pretty much puts the nails in the coffin of the '86 retcon.
It is a travesty that Claremonts backstories de-retconed the retcon only to be ignored by fans and then later retconed by other writers and editors... And now Morrison has done the same thing and some fans are still trying to ignore it. Hopefully the editors and writers will not retcon over what Morrison has established about Jean. Judging by the X-Men: The End preview they will not. At least not for now.
How many times must the premise of the original continuity be validated before it gets recognized?
Yes I think it is quite clear that Morrison put Jean/Phoenix II and Jean/Phoenix IV back as the same character.
-Jean was referenced as the original Phoenix several times in New X-Men. (She lost control of her thoughts and emotions, she was on the moon with Scott etc etc)
-The Dark Phoenix costume and the Black Queen costume are her old costumes.
-New Jean was the one that fought Emma during the original Phoenix Sagas.
-It has been revealed that Jean has a genetic mutation that makes her a Phoenix. The power is in her blood, genes, and organs. It is her ultimate mutation.
-Jean has a mental link to the Phoenix Consciousness.
-Jean is an Omega mutant with Phoenix Potential.
-Jean as Phoenix dies to be reborn.
-When Jean tells Wolverine all she knows about the Phoenix she starts off talking about herself as a 13 year old and about her telekinesis manifesting and how it has grown since.
-Her mutation for being a Phoenix seems tied to her telekinetic mutation. Her telekinetic sensitivity is known as the Manifestation of the Phoenix. It is her telekinetic godhood, her ultimate mutation.
-Jean also mentions the cosmic side of the coin. It burns through things that don't work, it eats stars and planets, it talks to her, and if she gets too close it replaces her.
-But these replacements are not literal. She is replaced in that she is consumed by the Phoenix Consciousness. Jean was 'replaced' by the Phoenix twice in New but was also the same character- before, during, and after being consumed. Just like Classic 8 backstory shows- the whole 'Phoenix replaced Jean' story was not literal. This is what happens naturally when she gets too close to the power.
-Jean was reborn after being gutted and then incenerated by the sun.
-She later died and was reborn into a new body through a Phoenix Egg found on the moon. They knew it was real and that the real Jean was inside because of where it was found. [where Dark Phoenix died]
-Jean hatches in the form of the Gold Woman. Way back On the shuttle as told in FF 286 and Classic 8 the Phoenix appeared to Jean in this form and claims that its consciousness, form, ability to speak, and ability to exist in this plane, derive from Jean. In Classic #8 It creates a body for her- a shell for Jean to be transferred too. Once bonded, Jean herself puts her old body in a cocoon with a spark of herself left just in case.
-Just like before Jean appears in New X-Men in the Gold Body Form as she re-forms a new body for herself. One of the classic backstories also shows the Gold Woman and phoenix raptor as a part of Jean's mind as a child. (Classic X-Men #42)
-The Phoenix Egg is a natural part of her life cycle as she dies to be reborn. It seems as if she is not allowed to instantly resurrect then she will be reborn through a Phoenix Egg. Just like before with the 'cocoon'- the incubation period is important and if she is pre-maturely hatched she will not have all her memories.
-Later when Jean re-enters the white hot room/afterlife- Jean appears as the White Phoenix. The same form that Jean/Phoenix II appeared in when she went into the afterlife after killing herself on the moon as seen in Classic 43. In that story Death explains that she is the real Jean and sends her back to the cocoon.
-Jean is a White Phoenix of the Crown apparently among the most powerful/special of the Phoenixes. Her status as White Phoenix of the Crown as well as her gold and white colors and her being in the Crown seemingly puts her at the top of the Phoenix Heirarchy. Classic 43 also says that Jean has a unique relationship with the power and itsn't completely separate from it.
-When you go to the White Hot Room you are always there waiting for yourself to arrive. Instead of meeting herself Jean met other Phoenixes. Re-affirming that she is and always has been A Phoenix. Instead of going into the towers when she "dies" like most others- she exists outside of them as the White Phoenix. This is who she truly is in a metaphysical sense. Classic 43 also hints at this. When she is in life she is in training. She just tends to loose her concentration in there.
-Phoenix work is to be the doctor's of the Universe. They heal what needs to be healed and burn away what doesn't work. Healing the M'Krann, destroying D'Bari, and destroying Sublime and resetting time were all a part of Jean's "Phoenix Work".
-They also established that Jean has died before in the past.
Besides showing that the replacments are not literal and assimilating the retcon elements into the original premise [like Claremont tried to do with his backups] Morrison also establishes that the Phoenix burns through lies and self deception. The Phoenix could not have decieved itself or anyone else into thinking it was Jean. And why take Jean's place literally when she can resurrect herself instantly and when she is a Phoenix herself and most probably the most special Phoenix of all?
And now we know that she can be consumed by the Phoenix Consciousness and even reborn through eggs into new bodies and still be the same character.
In Morrison's version the Phoenix is its avatars and a higher consciousness. The avatars have genetic mutations for being Phoenixes and have enormous psychic potential. The Phoenix Consciousness seems to be a collective consciousness of the avatars from the White Hot Room. This "they" seems to have a mental connection to them from the White Hot Room. It also seems to be able to regulate what they are allowed to do and how they will resurrect.
Jean and Quentin talk of "they" yet the only they we see are them and their fellow Phoenixes. They speak in their own Phoenix Voice yet there is a main voice that doens't come from any specific being that talks like a computer or collective with // marks.
Anyways Quentins presence also makes it in continuity. He evolved that way during Riot. We knew that his thought evolved into faster than light mental energy and that he entered higher planes and rooms. He went to the White Hot Room.
This also mirrors Jeans original transformation into Phoenix. The radiation had allowed her to evolve and reach her full potential as a psi and she became a being of pure mental energy. Though she then resurrected herself as Phoenix, originally.
Anyways I hope you will not be purposely decieving fans with your bios or ignoring current continuity. I hope to see Morrison's continuity recognized. After all until other wise stated or reinterpreted- it is the most recent and therefore should be official continuity.
Gender: Unspecified Location: Speedblitzing around the universe f
Wow...that's a lot to read.
"Anyways I hope you will not be purposely decieving fans with your bios or ignoring current continuity. I hope to see Morrison's continuity recognized. After all until other wise stated or reinterpreted- it is the most recent and therefore should be official continuity."
I assume this wasn't directed at me (bios?), so where did all of this come from?
Either way, ain't no way I'm reading all of that, so I'll just assume you're right, lol.
" assume this wasn't directed at me (bios?), so where did all of this come from?"
No it wasnt directed at u specifically just to people ive had debates with about the phoenix in the past. Trust me if u actually read it, it all makes sense and it all fits together. Take 5 mins out of your time to read it. If u dont then i dont want to hear anything about jean not being phoenix or jean without the phoenix cant do this or that because jean is and always will be the phoenix
Hey, demigawd. Just letting you know, that "Magneto" in Morisson's run was, in fact, NOT Magneto.
I won't lie, the whole storyline is very confusing. But that was actually a sort of clone, but not really. He really is the brother of the ACTUAL Xorn. This "Magneto" did not have control over magnetism. Instead, he had a very close power: Control over gravity. When you think about it, in many ways, control over magnetism and gravity are pretty similar. That's how "Magneto" was able to easily topple New York City. It also explains as to how he was able to supposedly "heal" Xavier. He just kept him up with his powers.
Magneto was actually still recovering from both a previous crippling attack from Wolverine and the large-scale Sentinel attack on Genosha. The whole time "Xorn/Magneto" was there at at the Institute, Magneto was still recovering from both of these incredible injuries.
Just thought I should mention that, because not many people know it.
And even though Galactic Storm already said it, Jean, who is and always will be Phoenix (the most powerful one at that), can ressurect herself. That basically makes her unstoppable.
Wolverine would beat Captain America.
After a battle, Colossus would eventually beat Iron Man.
And after an even more epic battle, one where Thor refuses to lose and taps into sheer will power, Phoenix eventually just decimates him. Thor would not stand a chance against Phoenix.
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Apr 17th, 2005 03:23 AM
