Gender: Unspecified Location: Speedblitzing around the universe f
Even accepting that Jean and Phoenix are the same, it doesn't at all mean that Jean has access to the totality of the Phoenix power. In all of Jean's appearances, she's had very few truly high level showings like that. Even during Morrison's run. When she was near death and heading towards the sun she was able to pull out a bunch of power. And she still died at the hands of Xorneto. Prior to that, she was powerful, but not so much so that I'd believe she'd be a match for King Thor. Her stamina was pretty limited, and against a god, that makes all the difference.
Re: The Magneto vs. Jean fight - Magneto beating her had nothing to do with her exerting herself after the M'Kraan epic - her power is limitless. She did put subconscious caps on her power, to avoid going crazy and losing herself - those caps, which had enabled her to do all kinds of feats, still wasn't enough against Magneto - she dead-ended against him. does the Phoenix Force have more power than Magneto? Of course! But the caps she put in her own mind, which she figured would be enough for anything, weren't enough in that instance. In the next issue, she instantly recovered and was back at full power and saved herself and Beast - so it wasn't an exhaustion thing at all.
"Even accepting that Jean and Phoenix are the same, it doesn't at all mean that Jean has access to the totality of the Phoenix power. In all of Jean's appearances, she's had very few truly high level showings like that. Even during Morrison's run. When she was near death and heading towards the sun she was able to pull out a bunch of power. And she still died at the hands of Xorneto. Prior to that, she was powerful, but not so much so that I'd believe she'd be a match for King Thor. Her stamina was pretty limited, and against a god, that makes all the difference."
The phoenixes have a job to do in the universe. They are doctors of existence fixing or destroying what needs to be fixed or destroyed within the universe for balance. For day to the day practical uses jeans power is limited by herself to a level she finds easy to handle in an earth bound situation. The phoenix power is limitless if jean allowed herself to access it to its fullest all the time there would be a reoccurrence of the dark phoenix saga. As the phoenix of the white crown she is top avatar and commands virtually the totality of the phoenix power if she needs it to carry out her phoenix duties. As phoenix jean has bested firelord with ease held together and reenergised the strands of existence under her own personal power, disinfected solar systems(d'bari) for the sake of the universe and u think a skyfather would be a match for that? Odin and the worlds pantheons couldnt even make a lower ranking celestial flinch during the 3rd host. Watch carefully how u use the word god. Thor is a very poweful being however he and his race are self proclaimed gods. Phoenix and countless other cosmic beings would eat him alive
"The Magneto vs. Jean fight - Magneto beating her had nothing to do with her exerting herself after the M'Kraan epic - her power is limitless. She did put subconscious caps on her power, to avoid going crazy and losing herself - those caps, which had enabled her to do all kinds of feats, still wasn't enough against Magneto - she dead-ended against him. does the Phoenix Force have more power than Magneto? Of course! But the caps she put in her own mind, which she figured would be enough for anything, weren't enough in that instance. In the next issue, she instantly recovered and was back at full power and saved herself and Beast - so it wasn't an exhaustion thing at all."
If u reread those issues of uncanny xmen where the fight occurred and those leading up to the dark phoenix saga it clearly states she was exhausted after saving existence and that was the likely cause of her defeat by magneto. That and the fact that jean had capped her powers to levels she thought appropriate for day to day practical applications. That she did after the m'kraan incident because her power levels were depleted. Jean hesitated and was defeated. Magneto said himself that he felt her hesitating and thats when he pushed in a last ditch effort because he was getting owned. The next issue she recovered to an extent because the force allowed her to do so, so quickly. Its part of her powers and she was forced to push back her caps to save her friends. When she needs more power she can access it but she restrains it to levels she feels are appropriate and she can cope wiv while earth bound. The fact that she recovered so quickly shows this and also demonstrates just why as phoenix jean would own the avengers along with any incarnation of thor that decides to tag along
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Last edited by GalacticStorm on Apr 18th, 2005 at 12:24 AM
Gender: Unspecified Location: Speedblitzing around the universe f
All of which is well and good, but then she functions more like the Spectre than anything - if she only gets the power to do a certain job, then unless the Phoenix Force decides that Thor doesn't work and needs to be burned away, she's not going to get the power necessary to beat him. If they're fighting a random battle, it would have to be "her phoenix duty" to beat Thor, otherwise she won't be able to do it. If she was always as powerful as you're saying she is, she wouldn't have taken beatings at the hands of people like Cassandra Nova, and she wouldn't have failed against Xorneto/Sublime.
Dark Phoenix going all out takes Thor down. But Jean simply has not shown the ability to access that power at will, not at any time during anybody's run. If it comes at all, it only comes in the midst of some major near-death crisis.
The fact that he instantly recovered the issue later shows that stamina is not an issue. She summons the power as she needs it. The fact that she exhausted herself in a previous storyarc has nothing to do with her ability to access power in this story. In fact, if you read it, during the battle, she never once says that she's tired or that she's straining. She simply...runs out of power. She even says that she seemed to have reached the limit of her power and can draw upon no more to fight Phoenix. She wondered how that could be when the Phoenix doesn't have limits. It was because of the subconscious blocks on her power, not because of exaustion. But Magneto was able to do what Firelord couldn't...uncover what the subconscious limit was and exceed it. And this was a Magneto who was under attack by all the rest of the X-men right before and right after too...he was more exhausted than she was.
True. It was enough for taking out a herald of Galactus and saving the M'Kraan Crystal. Just not enough to beat Magneto. I think the same problem would exist against Thor. Jean doesn't have willful access to that kind of power - her own character fears would prevent that. Phoenix is more powerful than Thor, but Jean is too fearful and too human to do what's necessary to beat Thor.
he was shocked and unprepared - because he never knew her to have that kind of power. Neither of them lashed out at full force until they had each other's measure. First she lashed at him, which caught him by surprise, then he pushed back at her by drawing from the EM field of the entire planet, she said, "he's really fighting back now - time to take the kid gloves off". She tries to draw on more power...but hits her wall. Magneto senses that hesitation (he believed it to be hesitation, it was actually confusion on her part because she was pushed to a limit she didn't know she had), and nails her.
No, it proves the opposite. Thor isn't a universal threat - the Phoenix Force won't allow her to access the power necessary to beat Thor because Thor is a hero and her life wouldn't be in danger against him. He'd just knock them all out.
You asked what people thought about your post and I responded.
In all actuality, your post asking people what they think about your Phoenix post was completely unnecessary. If people gave a damn about it, they'd reply wouldn't they?
Nobody except Demigawd replied.
That goes to show you exactly what everyone else thought about your Phoenix post..
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Last edited by Darth Vegas on Apr 19th, 2005 at 06:18 AM
Actually i was PMed about my post and ive had discussions on it in other threads discussing the phoenix. The only reason i asked what people think is so because this thread was disappearing and i was asked about what thread i posted all that phoenix stuff on. Therefore i posted and it appeared bk on the first pg for those people to see. The thing is i come across really long posts i cant be bothered to read or threads that i cant be arsed to post in all the time. If u compare the viewing figures of threads to the actually number of people who post it seems most people who use forums are just the same in that respect. However they and myself hav a certain level of maturity and if we we feel that way about a topic we just dont post because we have better things to do wiv our time and social lifes to busy ourselves with. Good try tho. Come again.
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Last edited by GalacticStorm on Apr 19th, 2005 at 09:03 AM
" All of which is well and good, but then she functions more like the Spectre than anything - if she only gets the power to do a certain job, then unless the Phoenix Force decides that Thor doesn't work and needs to be burned away, she's not going to get the power necessary to beat him. If they're fighting a random battle, it would have to be "her phoenix duty" to beat Thor, otherwise she won't be able to do it. If she was always as powerful as you're saying she is, she wouldn't have taken beatings at the hands of people like Cassandra Nova, and she wouldn't have failed against Xorneto/Sublime.
Dark Phoenix going all out takes Thor down. But Jean simply has not shown the ability to access that power at will, not at any time during anybody's run. If it comes at all, it only comes in the midst of some major near-death crisis."
Demi you're right in a way. When shes attending to her phoenix duties she has access to as much power as she needs to complete the task. In a standard battle with thor just a friendly duel or a fight whose outcome she foresaw didnt really have any major affects on future events then yes i agree with you jean would probably lose. However if it was a fight to the death or one that it was important for the Xmen to win then of course she would push back the bariers on her power and obliterate him and his team. However its Jean who places the bottlenecks on her power its not something te phoenix force enforces on her so in that way its not that similar to the Spectre situation.
"The fact that he instantly recovered the issue later shows that stamina is not an issue. She summons the power as she needs it. The fact that she exhausted herself in a previous storyarc has nothing to do with her ability to access power in this story. In fact, if you read it, during the battle, she never once says that she's tired or that she's straining. She simply...runs out of power. She even says that she seemed to have reached the limit of her power and can draw upon no more to fight Phoenix. She wondered how that could be when the Phoenix doesn't have limits. It was because of the subconscious blocks on her power, not because of exaustion. But Magneto was able to do what Firelord couldn't...uncover what the subconscious limit was and exceed it. And this was a Magneto who was under attack by all the rest of the X-men right before and right after too...he was more exhausted than she was."
Well thats debatable. But yes ok the main reason she lost the battle was because of the limits she placed on her powers after the M'Kraan incident. However by limiting her ability to access the force Jean also limits the benefits of being one with it such as fast healing and recovery time. She was indeed exhausted and recovered far slower than she would have if she had allowed herself higher limits . The beast even comments himself on how remarkable it was that jean was near death it seemed and then suddenly she was recovered. She had to push back the limits she'd set because her brief battle with mags showed they werent sufficient.
"he was shocked and unprepared - because he never knew her to have that kind of power. Neither of them lashed out at full force until they had each other's measure. First she lashed at him, which caught him by surprise, then he pushed back at her by drawing from the EM field of the entire planet, she said, "he's really fighting back now - time to take the kid gloves off". She tries to draw on more power...but hits her wall. Magneto senses that hesitation (he believed it to be hesitation, it was actually confusion on her part because she was pushed to a limit she didn't know she had), and nails her"
Cool. Yeah i agree with that totally.
"No, it proves the opposite. Thor isn't a universal threat - the Phoenix Force won't allow her to access the power necessary to beat Thor because Thor is a hero and her life wouldn't be in danger against him. He'd just knock them all out."
I think confusion has arisen from my wording of things. When i said "the force allows her to" i meant the benefits of being one with the phoenix is that she can recover so quickly its a feature of the powers, not that the phoenix force said yes jean i will allow you to recover quickly now because its important to your work lol. Sorry its my fault. Like i said before her limits are placed by herself subconsciously. If she feels that she needs to win the battle, that xmen winning is important then she would and could quite easily destroy thor. But the fact that he's a hero and she's one too would prevent her from doing so as a hero unless it was a life or death stuation or innocents were at risk.
Yeah and im guessing thats also the reason u attempted to be clever and posted waffle unnecessarily when u werent interested in the topic or the post. Most people wiv sense which seems to be every other user of this forum but yourself just dont bother they hav better things to do. Either way i achieved what i set out to do. My post has been discussed in other threads and this thread has been brought to the attention of those who PMed me on the matter. Goodbye!!
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Last edited by GalacticStorm on Apr 19th, 2005 at 04:30 PM
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Given that heroes don't usually fight each other to the death, least of all Thor and the X-men, I think it's safe to say that there wouldn't be any kind of crazy crisis generated on the scale of, say, Phoenix and Wolverine being hurled towards the sun and being seconds away from death before Jean becomes the Phoenix.
True, and just as Beast made that observation AFTER Jean's battle with Magneto, neither he nor anybody else made that observation BEFORE her battle with Magneto. The only reason why that would be the case is because she was recovered. And given that Magneto had just spent the preceeding several minutes fighting and beating the entire team, the only questionable stamina was Magneto's, and he still pulled off a win.
Ah, ok, I see what you're saying now. That makes sense. Of course, you have to conisder the battle rules, though from the battle rules posting:
1. It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first picosecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.
2. Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.
So using those two rules, you couldn't simply say that Jean would instantly turn into Dark Phoenix and incinerate the Avengers team - it violates both rules. She's be fighting with the context of her personality and the limitations she places on herself - and that can only be derived by looking at her average performance during GM's run. And while her average during GM's run is pretty damn high, I'd still say it falls short of regular Thor, much less a skyfather level Thor.
I could live with that conclusion, but logically speaking, her reaching that point in a battle against Avengers would be unusual. To assign a series to it might be more accurate, in which case I give Thor the majority 7/10. Phoenix wins the three because she does what you said above. But that's rare, and the 3/10 win for her would accurately reflect that. Agree?
Yeah i agree with most of what you said theyre fair points cant really argue. It all just depends on what type of battle theyre having. If its friendly, or if its just a case of one side misunderstanding the other then yeah thor would most likely win in it for the avengers. However if the avengers were too heavy handed, if they were standing in the way of the xmen accomplishing something with the xteam having no time to explain( as happens loads in comics) or if they were gonna try and capture/detain the team then those are all very gd reasons for jean to get heavy handed and take them out (subdue them) as phoenix.
how bout the situation is like in ultimate nightmare both the aveners and the x-men are on a mission the avengers spot the x-men and try and take them out and capture them because they are vigilanties
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Apr 17th, 2005 11:42 PM
