Gideon definitely summed up part of it but I'll get to the other part when I'm good and ready. I don't remember the therapist lecturing me on procrastination.
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The entire point about Dooku vs. Yoda, is that you don't have to try to kill someone in order to disarm them. Anakin pwned Dooku in, what'd Advent say, 13 seconds? Yoda didn't disarm him at all. I think that's where she was going with it. And Anakin didn't have murder on the brain from the jump. He was goaded into it after Dooku knelt helpless before. It speaks for Anakin's skill level in pure saberwork comparatively to other Jedi, against the same opponent.
Gideon was nitpicking on something she said, but she wasn't talking about Yoda and Dooku, she was talking about Mace and Dooku. So Gideon said that Yoda is more powerful than Dooku, which doesn't say much about Yoda vs Anakin, because like said before, so was Anakin when he disarmed Dooku.
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I don't think anyone has said that Anakin automatically beats Yoda, but that Anakin is among the top tier saber duelists of his era and would at least stand a good chance against Yoda. The fact that he beat Dooku (who is a top Force user himself) is a way to prove he was powerful with a lightsaber.
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You implied that Dooku is not necessarily weaker than Yoda; I'm telling you that Yoda is better. And by a lot.
Agreed. But Mace is, even without the nature of Vaapad, a high end master of multiple forms. In strict technical ability, the two of them are easily on par with one another. Dooku thought twice about engaging Windu in a protracted engagement during the Republic's siege of Boz Pity.
Btw, your argument about George's quote regarding being Mace or Yoda to beat Sidious and Anakin being excluded? Lame. Sidious would hand Anakin his ass in a fight, and no, it wouldn't be close.
@ The rest:
Anakin is certainly among the very best, and was able to hold his own against Dooku twice in a lightsaber engagement between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. In terms of Force command? He lags miles behind Dooku, Yoda, and Sidious. He's not going to be defeating Yoda -- who enjoys an advantage due to his diminutive stature and speed (see Sidious's attempts to confine Yoda during their duel).
I look at it like this: Yoda, being "the greatest foe the darkness has ever known" up to that time, says alot about how p[owerful he is. That, on top of him being like 800 something years old, most of that time working to become betetr with the force and with a lightsaber, the fact that Yoda has the speed and skill necessary to beat the living crap out of Anakin, and the fact of him being the highest ranking jedi in the ordfer, in their hierarchy, grand master and what not.
__________________ Anar
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Isil
Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.
I don’t know, may be wrong, but this sounds more logical and obvious.
I thought the quote about them being equals included everything; lightsaber form, technical skill and even Shatterpoint, although I'm not sure about that last.
Just a question, but does that quote refer to lightsaber combat only? Because we all know Anakin would lose an all out fight to Yoda. But his greatest strength was his lightsaber ability.
This is the stupid theory again, but Anakin disarmed Dooku in mere moment while Yoda in AotC couldn't disarm him in the same amount of time. This stupid theory is G-Canon though.
__________________ Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Last edited by Slash_KMC on Oct 14th, 2009 at 10:23 PM
And I told you that I don't care how you interpreted my message. Slash nailed what I meant.
It'd be particularly foolish to believe that George Lucas was talking about purely sabers, which is all I've ever been talking about. In sabers, yes, Anakin can compete with anyone in the PT. And Sidious would not hand Anakin his ass there. He can defeat him, sure, perhaps more often than not, or not, but there's absolutely no way that he'll be doing it easily.
I realize all you do anymore is essentially make poor excuses ("Anakin wasn't a Jedi... because he didn't feel like one... he was a Sith from birth... ergo the quote doesn't apply hahahaha!!1!"), but perhaps you could spend more time actually articulating your argument?
Silly idea, I know.
And before you go on some tangent about the demands of your social life and limited time and how both prevented you from offering something worthwhile, you do have enough time to log on and argue to death with DS. You've got the time. You're just not managing it.
And I realize the first paragraph looks like a question, but it's actually a demand.
Right, and unless it's a handicap match in which Sidious has no access to his Force powers, Anakin might be okay. But otherwise, Sidious and Yoda each would annihilate, curbstomp, and otherwise atomize Anakin in a fight. They are far more powerful in the Force, which is really all they need in an actual duel.
I just orgasmed a little bit.
@ Slash:
See what I told Advent. There were to parts to DS's claim (Dooku can't handle Yoda or Mace). She told him good luck proving it. She's naturally embarrassed that she said that and that I so easily proved Yoda's superiority over Dooku and she responds with hostile responses which go to the rhythm of YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN WHAT I MEANT!!!1!
As for the statement in DR, it doesn't qualify. But Windu's victory over a more powerful opponent due to tools he will have access to in a fight with Dooku and the fact that Dooku fled from Windu on Boz Pity suggests a slight disparity, all things considered.
P.S., Advent, just so you don't explode in a hostile fashion, I'm just kidding and I'll always love you.
Well, I made clear precisely what I meant; there's nothing for me to be embarrassed about or get hostile over. When I get embarrassed, I usually try to scuttle off quietly and don't respond at all, trying to let the thread die off; for future reference.
What was it I even said...?
What is "it"? What is it "I'm not arguing either"? It's Dooku and Mace; the only two names that were actually mentioned.
Again: You can keep going on and on about Force powers, Yoda vs. Dooku, and "non-handicap" matches, but like I said, I don't care because I agree with you. Having pointed out that I'm talking about specifically saber dueling is part of the other reason why I don't care what you're saying.
So we're talking about a contradiction then. Because the quote clearly states that they would be equals on neutral ground and that Dooku would be better on Vjun, unless you gave some weird unorthodox twist to the quote. On the other hand, Mace did beat someone stronger than Dooku in a lightsaber duel. Contradiction.
By the way, running away from an opponent doesn't mean you would automatically have lost if you did fight him.
__________________ Imagination is more important than knowledge.
I subscribe to a suspension of disbelief, assuming that canon statements and events aren't written arbitrarily. A responsible, intelligent, and objective logician (me) assumes that the authors and writers and staff at LFL have some general knowledge of what the hell they're doing and that we can't simply disregard statements, events, or situations simply because we don't like them. It's either all or nothing: unless there is a contradiction as such that can't be resolved logically or it is officially retconned, that means it's canon and everyone will accept it and move on.
It's canon that Mace Windu utilized the metaphysical nature of Vaapad and the shatterpoint charism to defeat Darth Sidious in combat. These tools -- the shatterpoint charism and Vaapad -- aren't isolated strictly to a fight with Sidious. They would be present for Windu's exploitation in a fight with Dooku as well. It's fact that Sidious is more powerful and more dangerous than Dooku. It's also a fact that despite the fact that Count Dooku vowed to "deal with the Jedi!" during the Republic's siege of Boz Pity, he opted to allow General Grievous's Magnaguards to interfere while he made his escape.
I look at it like this: if the two were to fight, Windu would have access to the same tools that were sufficient enough to defeat someone who is much more powerful and dangerous than Dooku. Unless there's something special about Dooku, unless he has some sort of immunization to Vaapad, I see no reason to conclude that a lightsaber duel would end in anything other than a very likely defeat for Dooku.
In terms of skill, you have someone who is an unimaginably skilled fencer -- the master of Makashi, the pinnacle of lightsaber-to-lightsaber fighting -- and a skilled Master of the Force versus someone who invented his own lightsaber form and is a high end master of multiple forms. All things considered, I'd say they could be easily even.
In skill. But Dooku's dark side allegiance leaves him vulnerable to Vaapad and Windu's shatterpoint charism would be enough to tip the scales.
One thing Gideon. I don't know if this is just a theory or we've discussed this before, but I would think that the more powerful the dark sider, the more effective the Vaapad's "superconducting loop". This also works negatively. The weaker the dark sider (dooku), the less effective Vaapad is.
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Oct 14th, 2009 11:43 AM
