So your using the old A>B>C which certainly doesnt work here.. Vappad gave Mace Sidious's speed and Power(his 2 main advantages over Mace) during their fight.
Now you explain to me how hes going to replicate that against Dooku. A guy whose main advantages over Mace would be greater fencing skills and more knowledge and possibly greater command of the Force..
Right you obviously dnt understand the typical hero/villain mentality do you?? Let me give you a lesson. Hero is willing to give his life to take down villain. Villain not willing to give his life EVER.. This simple logical hero/villain mentality was especially true of Mace and Dooku..
Now you tell me if Mace and Dooku were equal, like DR says and like Obsession certainly showed while the were duelling, who would have more to Lose in a fight to the Death, Mace or Dooku??
Have you also got no memory of the fact that Sidious tried to flee from Yoda... Are you really suggesting that means Yoda is more powerful or better.. And Sidious didnt have anyone else hunting him at the time.. Dooku on the other hand was fighting equally against Mace while all the other Jedi on Boz city were hunting him.
Same way he did with Sidious. Except this time it probably would not require as much force reserves from Mace, or take as long to match Dooku's speed and fury.
Mace is faster, physically stronger, and has displayed far more impressive raw TK power than Dooku.
I do not see how Dooku's force mastery is miles above Windu. And its not enough to overcome him in battle.
Dooku is also not your typical coward-like villain either. He is usually very arogant, and considers himself superior than most jedi. When have you seen him run from Anakin or Obi Wan? When have you seen him run from any jedi besides Mace or Yoda?
Dooku, maybe.
Sidious had control over the republic and just declared his new empire. He had already won, basically. If he died at the hands of Yoda, all that would have been for nothing.
Besides, Sidious and Dooku are very different in personality. Sidious does anything to win, whether it is cheating or not. I mean... he did kill his master in his sleep. You hardly ever see Sidious underestimate his opponents. He is more sneaky and devious than Dooku.
__________________ "If someone stands in the way of true justice, you simply walk up behind them, and stab them in the heart" -Ra's Al Ghul
Last edited by SIDIOUS 66 on Nov 6th, 2009 at 07:45 PM
Same way he did to sidious?? so what hes gna sink into vapaad and match dooku's superior speed?? No. It would be totally different to Mace vs. Sidious.
I dnt think hes shown better TK feats than Dooku.. But I do think Dooku has showed far more Force domination over other powerful force users than Mace has. Examples against Sora Bulq, Obiwan, Ventress, Tholme, Vos... the list is endless.
And I dnt see Mace being "MILES" ahead in strength and speed.. But Mace is faster and physically stronger, whilst Dooku has better fencing skills, and more knowledge of the Force, hence them being overall "equal on neutral ground.."
So you think dnt see Dooku as a coward.. Instead you see him as a complete Moron, the dumbest villain ever... One who would be willing to have a long drawn out fight with Windu whilst being hunted by several other jedi.. No Dooku is smart and that was a tactical retreat, and if you read shatterpoint, or comics you would know Mace was perfectly willing to give his life to take out Dooku, hence advantage to Mace.
And actually he has run from Obi-Wan and Anakin in like the 10th episode of CW cartoon. So get your facts right and accept the fact that Dooku is smart enough to know when to retreat... and its not just about him thinking hes tackling a more powerful jedi.. In fact if you read Dark Rendezvous he actually though he was Equal or even Superior to Yoda on Geonosis!!
And what? Dying at the hands of Windu would have been good for Dooku on Boz city??? It was the same thing, Yoda was willing to give his life to take out Sidious, just as Mace was willing to give his life to take out Dooku on Boz city.. Both those heroes certainly had a decent chance of winning.. The fact that they were going for the kill, and willing to sacrifice their own lives just made them more of a threat to those respective Siths.
Hence the smart Sith would try to avoid those fights.
They are both Cunning Siths, whose ultimate goal is to survive and rule, not to sacrifice themselves.
A>B>C argument? Hardly; such an argument would be more along the lines of "Obi-Wan beat Anakin, who beat Dooku, ergo Obi-Wan would beat Dooku!"
Windu was able to best Sidious -- who is far more powerful and more dangerous than Dooku -- in a duel because of the shatterpoint charism and Vaapad. Both of those techniques wouldn't just not be there if Dooku were at the other end of Windu's blade.
Dooku's not a perfect duelist, given his eventual defeat and death, so it is extremely likely that Windu can identify a shatterpoint in either his technique or the situation. Lastly, Vaapad is the deadliest form of all and enables its masters to negate virtually any advantage of a dark side-affiliated opponent within a reasonable amount of time.
Dooku's best bet is to kill Windu before he can tap into either the shatterpoint charism or Vaapad, and I don't see that happening.
Please find it within you to refrain from lecturing if not out of simple decency than for two very fine reasons: (1) I'm right and (2) I'm better than you.
Dooku was willing to put his life on the line, otherwise he'd never enter the field of battle at all. There's always a risk. Dooku reconsidered after finding Windu. Says something powerful to me.
Equal? Exchanging a few blows and then having your minions blindside your opponent does not equal make. Dooku, who is noted for being enormously confident (arrogant?) in his abilities... reconsidered a fight to the death with Windu. No one said it meant he was inferior, just that he considers Windu an extremely dangerous opponent.
Sidious just achieved galactic domination and knew very well that Yoda might hand him his ass. He was right to run. As was Dooku. But they'd only run for one reason:
They knew it was extremely possible that they'd lose.
Vaapad isn't an RPG technique, you don't get +50 Opponent's speed, you match their speed. If Mace is faster than Dooku, then good for him. If he isn't, then Vaapad's gonna come in handy. Plus it's not just speed, it's their very power, and it's gonna be reflected right back at Dooku. It's a superconducting loop, not a superconducting straight line.
And you think Mace couldn't do that? The guy tossed an AT-TE over a cliff with ease, he swept away hordes of B2s with telekinesis.
As much as I agree that Dooku's smart enough to know when to retreat, if he truly believed that he was more powerful than Yoda on Geonosis, then one does have to wonder about just how smart he really is.
__________________ The wise man speaks because he has something to say, the fool because he has to say something.
The AT-TE didnt seem easy to me... It seemes like he used both hands and considerable power. And lets not forget Dookus no slouch in the TK department agaisnt solid objects. He causes Stone Caves to collapse with extreme ease with a simple raise off a hand.
But Mace has yet to prove he could dominate all those jedis the way Dooku can just with the Force.. Dnt just make assumptions based on his telekenisis against non-force users.
Hes fought Ventress, (who actually staggered him at one point) and culdnt stop her escaping.. If he could simply paralyze her like Yoda and Dooku have done in the past, then she wuldnt have escaped him considering there was no explosion as a distraction like there was when Yoda had her..
Theyve also both fought Sora Bulq.. Dooku dominated Bulq in both force and the saber duel.. Although Mace ended his fight with Sora with a Force push, he hardly dominated him with the Force.. In fact Sora also got a force push on Mace earlier in the fight.
According to DR he thought he was his equal, (poosibly superior). Thats just Darkside arrogance.. Anakin thought he was stronger than the emporer.
What would Dooku sacrifice his life for?? Or sidious for that matter? It didnt seem like Dooku wanted to sacrifice himself for the sith cause when palpatine ordered anakin to kill him.
But surely you can see theyd work differently and it would be a completely different fight.. Vapaad helped match Sidious's superiore speed and power. Those were sidious's advantages in a saber duel against mace, and vapaad helped mace to match him in that.
Now lets think of Dookus advantages over mace in a duel.. Probably NOT strength, speed or power. His advantages would more likely be better fencing skill, more elegance and precision, and possibly better mastery of the force. Do you really think Vapaad would give mace these superior abilities of Dooku's?? I seriosuly doubt it.
Hes the master of makashi.. the ultimate refinement in blade to blade duelling.. You cant really improve on that. He was defeated by another incredible duelist but one who was simply much more powerful. He got overpowered.. simple as that. And shatterpoint gives no guarantee of a victory. Even if Mace sees Dooku's "physical" shatterpoint, taking advantage of that weak point is something else entirely.
If you honestly expected Dooku to carry on a long and difficult duel with mace while several other jedi were on their way to help mace capture dooku, then you wuldnt survive long as a sith.
Taking a risk on the battlefield is slightly different to guaranteeing your capture(or death) which is what he would have done had he carried on fighting. Not simply because Mace is better... But because Mace himself would be a very difficlut opponent foe Dooku, who certainly has a decent chance of defeating him. With other jedi on the way, Dooku's death or capture was pretty much guaranteed.
Clearly you havent read many comics. Fighting for 5 scenes is a decent size fight in a comic.. And each blow both kept their ground, both matched each other blow for blow... You think its be the same if Mace fought Obiwan or ventress?? Of course not.. The actual fight showed neither to have the advantage, which considering the circumstances actaully put Dooku at a Disadvantage. Because Dooku culdnt afford to draw, as that wuld guarantee his capture. I dnt see whats so difficult to understand there.
Yes finally we are getting somewhere.. They both had a decent chance of losing, which is why theyd rather avoid those fights. NOT because they though they were inferior.
I saw Dooku give more effort -- strong gestures and visible concentration/effort on his face -- trying to collapse a walkway during RotS.
Advantage: Mace.
No one said Dooku was a slouch.
I believe Lucien is making a case for Windu's ability to easily grip and throw larger numbers and greater masses than Dooku has shown.
And a small group of pirates held Dooku captive in abject humilitation. I'll take being staggered by Ventress before being reduced to tears by a group of thugs.
WTF, where did Dooku dominate Sora with the Force? He blasted him with Force lightning once. Rather like Windu Force pushing Sora once.
Which proves how highly Dooku thinks of himself... and yet he still ran from Mace.
You mean the one he collapsed on Obiwan with one hand after just flicking him away like a nobody while kicking anakin away like he was a nobody?? yeah your eyesight needs checking. theres no advantage to mace in the force.
He can make a case all he wants.. the simple fact is Mace hasnt shown anything that proves he could finish Obiwan with a mere flick of the wrist.. or paralyze ventress by merely lifting a finger.
He was ambushed and didnt have his lightsaber.. It just shows jedis/siths arent invincible by people with no powers.
Your arguments have taken a new turn of desperation by bringing up the pirates episode.. Cad Bane just recently humiliated both Mace and Obi together by escaping them. Thats just one man without any powers.
Are you that stupid??? Dooku was dominating Bulq with one hand while Force pushing Tholme away.. Then he disarmed Bulq of his shoto(Mace never managed to outduel Bulq), and finally completely knocked him out with FL??
Your comparing that to Mace fighting Bulq one on one, and getting force pushed onto the groung by Bulq earlier in the fight?? and even when Mace force pushed him, Bulq was still concious and its arguable whether the fight was over or not... Against Dooku, his FL was simply in a different league completely finishing Bulq leaving poor Tholme to fight Dooku on his own.
No he "walked" away from the planet swarming with jedi out to capture/kill him. Sidious who was also very arrogant and also considered himself above any jedi, actually did "Run" from Yoda. And only Yoda.. There was no one else after Sidious.
His raw power elclipses Dooku's by far. Maybe Dooku is a little more refined, but not by a lot.
Are you kidding me? Mace would eat Obi Wan's ass up in a force contest. And as for Ventress, she was not trying to fight her master back. Dooku caught her by surprise. Dooku greatly hinted in that book that Sidious showed him [Dooku] the same treatment, but does that mean since Yoda did not, that Sidious is greater than Yoda?
Mace had no lightsaber while being surrounded by a thousand super battle droids, but managed to take them out with the force alone. I would say: A thousand SBD>>>>>about 20 drunken pirates.
Mace and Obi Wan were not defeated in battle by Cad Bane. They were not captured, or hung by chains. They were busy dodging several blaster bolts coming at them while being trapped in an energy field. That is how Cad made his escape.
Ummm... how can you call anyone stupid? You do realize that Mace and Bulq were on the same side, and that they were not fighting to hurt or kill eachother, don't you??
Dooku is the one who promised to deal with Mace. He went up to Mace trying to fight. Then after realizing how good Mace was, he RAN.
__________________ "If someone stands in the way of true justice, you simply walk up behind them, and stab them in the heart" -Ra's Al Ghul
No it doesnt. Just because youve seen him crush more droids means nothing, considering Dooku doesnt fight battledroids as therye usually fighting under him.
Beating Obi-wan in a force contest is very different to disposing of a jedi of Obi-wan's calibre with a mere flick of the wrist.
All he did was raise a finger! Lol.. Ventress culdnt fight back even if she wanted to.. she was completley paralyzed and in pain. Dnt tell me about hints.. give me facts.
Please dnt compare feats from the new animation to the original cw mini series, which according to Dave Filoni had "over the top" force feats.
Not to mention even when mace did that, all the droids behind him wernt shooting while he took out all the ones in front. I doubt the pirates would be that dumb. So no i dnt think battle driods are superior to pirates in any way.
and hey Obiwan was ambushed by GG's droids and took them all out using the Force.. So are you gna tell me now that Obiwan's better with the Force than Dooku???!!!
I didnt say they were.
But Obiwan was captures and hung by those same pirates who captured Dooku.
Yeah Mace was pretty dumb how he fell right for that. "Ill get the holocron.. No i will".. Oh and i didnt see Mace just Force crushing everything in sight there... I mean surely 1000 droids is greater than several automatic blaster bolts! LOL
Look my point was Dooku's not the one to be humiliated by non force users.. HOws that ambush different to being ambushed by pirates surroundung you?? Except Mace had Obiwan to aid him and both had their lightsabers.
WHAT???!!! Go read schism again. Bulq was seduced by the dark side and Mace found out. When did either of them hint theyre not willing to hurt the other?? Dnt just make stuff up.
First of all he never promised to deal with Mace specifically. He decided to avoid a long drawn out fight with a guy whose possibly his equal and in a fight that would have ensured his capture on that planet.
As far as the actual fight went they were equal blow for blow. There was no hint of either gaining an advantage in the fight.
I'm not interested in carrying on this debate, for the simple reason that you clearly have a bias towards Dooku that borders on Nebaris's obsession with Bane. I could spend time elaborating on the following:
- When Dooku subdued Ventress, he was on Vjun, a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force. It enhanced his abilities according to numerous passages. The book even mentions how Ventress could hold Dooku off, but she could not escape him if she came to Vjun -- in the "orbit" of Dooku's power.
- The pirates that captured Dooku didn't demonstrate any cunning outside of their singular leader. They were no more dangerous than battle droids or clone troopers, Dooku was overconfident and paid the price in abject humiliation.
- Cad Bane may have outwitted Windu, but he did not humiliate him in the same regard that Dooku was humiliated. Bane unleashed a series of deadly traps against the Jedi that allowed him to escape. Dooku was disarmed and captured. Twice.
- Ventress fled from Windu, and Windu overpowered Sora Bulq in a similar fashion: dominating him with the Force. The fact that Dooku did it with Force lightning in the middle of a lightsaber duel does not make it more impressive or more final. That Dooku demonstrates superiority to Bulq with the Force is different from demonstrating superior swordsmanship. Mace is better in both regards than Bulq.
- The comic shows them exchanging blows, it does not give us second-by-second choreography. For all we know, Windu was being pressed back or vice versa. All it shows that Dooku and Windu fought and neither one of them were disarmed. But the fact remains that Dooku called for his minions to blindside Mace rather than sit and duke it out with him. And as you say, Dooku is enormously confident in his own abilities.
- The fact that Force lightning > Force push is something of a no brainer and it has nothing to do with the strength of the opponents.
- Dooku fled Boz Pity because he knew he was in serious danger. He was outwitted, outmaneuvered, and outmatched. He vowed to deal with the Jedi and the second Windu strolled onto the scene, changed his mind. Comparing this situation to Sidious is stupid. Sidious was trapped in confined quarters with the most powerful Jedi in existence. After all of his success? He was right to run. But the point is the same. Sidious knew that there was a tremendous chance he could lose. Same for Dooku.
All of this is to say that you've provided no case for Dooku's superiority.
He won't listen. His ego's been attacked by three people now. He'll continue this until it become a debate on the ethics of debate. It's happened infinity+ times.
__________________ The wise man speaks because he has something to say, the fool because he has to say something.
I know you dnt want to carry on.. you dnt like being challenged..
And i have no bias or obsession towards Dooku. Iv just pointed out his feats against the likes of powerful jedi/dark jedis such as Bulq, Vos, Obiwan, Ventress, Tholme... The list goes on.
And all you lot have in return is oh, hes crap he got caught by pirates.
As for your final arguments, (with or without your elaborations) I think you know i could easily argue all of them because theres no real substance in any of them. So i wnt bother.
Oh and i never actually once said Dooku is plain out superior to Mace. Never even argued that. Iv said from the start DR calls them equals.
Although I have provided masses of evidence of Dooku being superior in certain qualities. Whilst of course Mace is superior in other ways.
I know its hard for you to admit someone your arguing has points, and may be right, but thats your own arrogance and not my problem. Carry on your one sided debates.
Oct 15th, 2009 08:00 PM
