All the ways you wish you could be, that's me. I look like you wanna look, I **** like you wanna ****, I am smart, capable, and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not.
I don't particularly care about your opinion on the matter, dadude. Your position has gone beyond what is reasonable and it is now you just posting in a deliberately aggravating manner. If you do not cut it out, you will be warned.
styletime, you are starting to become equally at fault if you continue clogging the thread with this endless and irrelevant sideshow. dadude clearly doesn't want to state his position again, LIke I say, that;'s fine, no-one obliges him too- but he has to accept that in a thread of this size and age, it is not practical for everyone to have read earlier arguments.
If dadude wants to carry on, he has to restate. If he wants to let his earlier comments stand and be his word on the matter, then he should stay out of the thread. Carrying on in the way he has been is not acceptable.
That is my judgment. Back on topic now please. PM me if you want to discuss the matter.
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Ali should win. He has better showings against some of the greatest boxers of his day. Lee's abilities, logically, give him no more advantage than that of an extremely athletic man against Ali.
I disagree, of course, as an athletic man would get his ass handed to him by Ali.
As Leo was apt to point out, even highly trained MMAs can get their asses handed to them very quickly in a fight. Unfortunately for Ali, he has not trained in developing and mastering multiple martial art styles specifically made to throw your opponent off from your moves. That should be a nightmare for any boxer.
Part of that runs into the dangerous territory of theory fighting. Tai chi and drunken fist are designed with deception in mind. Neither has given us any proof worth considering here that it works.
Ali's grabs and holds won't be necessary. Not only has Lee never demonstrated high level grappling in a bout, this fight is unlikely to leave kickboxing range.
Last edited by StyleTime on Jul 26th, 2010 at 12:06 AM
But all we need is some sort of knowledge of any sort of grappling and hold training from one side or the other, which is almost paramount in an MMA fight.
This fight is definitely an MMA fight as it would several types of MA.
And, you're right: it probably won't leave the kickboxing realm. It doesn't seem logical that Ali will be able to do much of anything considering his experience.
I might agree were there less of a weight disparity. Yes, weight isn't everything, but it matters when it is this big of a difference. I've grappled with a guy that was 70 lbs lighter than myself, and it was enlightnening to the effects of weight in combat. This guy is far more skilled than myself, and I had been grappling for all of two weeks. He attempted an armbar from mount, and all I had to do was push him off. Literally, all I did was toss him off of me.
Bruce's size leads me to believe he'll encounter similar problems against Ali. If he had more grappling feats to contradict that, I'd change my stance.
At kickboxing range, Ali is just too much of a beast. He is one of the few fighters to successfully use the phantom punch in actual competition. It's crazy to think he can KO someone while moving backwards, but he can. Lee is in a tough spot here.
Last edited by StyleTime on Jul 26th, 2010 at 12:44 AM
What you describe is a strength difference, not necessarily a weight difference.
Lee would definitely be stronger than Ali, in the upper body. The most I've seen someone be able to hold out, straight in front of them, is 90lbs (two 45s). That was done by a big ol' Jamaican dude on roids (and that dude could bench press the moon). I don't see anyone outside of someone significantly strogner than lee, being able to break out of a hold. Two guys, same strength: if one got the other in a hold, the one in the hold would not be able to break most of them unless he got some sort of leverage right before the hold was placed on him (which would take lots of training, which Ali doesn't have.)
If Lee gets Ali in any holds, Ali is gone.
And, beast or not, Ali has no training against "phantom kicks". Lee's kicking reach is much farther than Ali's punching reach. Lee really doesn't have to do much beyond kick Ali in the head. Ali's lack of training to a lightning fast kicker is really what seals the deal, to me. Weight class doesn't matter when the other person can KO you without much effort.
Yes, the strength difference presented by a weight disparity. I mentioned Bruce failed to prove convincingly that he could even overcome that.
If you're talking about Lee supposedly performing the 75+ lb dumbell feat, I offer you this. As amazing as that feat sounds, I've seen absolutely no concrete evidence he actually performed it. Like many of his would be feats, they are confirmed by "eye-witness" accounts from his friends or wife. It's possible I've missed pictures or videos of this events, but I doubt it. C'mon dadudemon, you lift weights; you know why some of this is hard to believe. Some people claim he curled 80lbs in his 20s.
You constantly refer to Lee KOing Ali, but Lee hasn't knocked out anyone officially. Knock out power is something a fighter must prove before he gets benefit of the doubt. "Phantom kick" is a dream, but the phantom punch is real. Ali has used it. It is a downright frightenening ability, but we know for a fact he can knock someone out while moving backwards.
Ali has the sharingan.
I've said this before, but the Lee argument has one huge obstacle to overcome. There isn't much evidence to support it. Of course, you are welcome to believe Lee wins on a personal level; however, you must recognize that conviction has little merit in this thread.
Last edited by StyleTime on Jul 26th, 2010 at 05:48 PM
Ali would beat Bruce Lee in a fight. Bruce Lee's biggest advantage would be his kicks, and Ali has enough speed to avoid them. When Bruce missed a kick, Ali could punch him in the leg or head. Ali would absorb Bruce Lee's hits, and take him out with a K.O.
If Ali can take hits from lumbering George Foreman, then I'm sure that Bruce Lee would be no problem.
I would say that Lees kicking reach and Ali's straight punches are close. Especially when you take into account Ali's elusiveness on his feet and speed of attack... and when you fu** up a kick youre off balance and exposed..
Ali is cross trained a bit better in things than you think also, I think.
I think he would outstrength, out range, outsmart and own Lee...especially if the Bigger, faster boxer is not restricted to ring rules.
Most epic thread ever and Ali still wins, looking at it objectively. Top ranked boxer vs movie star.
Figthing smarts is now the issue? Ali, easy. He both has the experience under his belt and he knows how to get into an opponent's head and mind-**** them.
Not that think this fight will last long, as I see Lee being dropped with a combo early in, but should it go on, Ali's mouth and wit will too, slowly angering Lee with verbal jabs and small-dick jokes.
Yes weve been over it, but you keep forgetting to include the fact that boxers step in with shots (Especially at Ali's speed thats a problem for Lee)
And Ali was a reachey 6ft three guy. That paired in with stepping in increasing range at speed, and the proven ability to read what fighters are gonna do next and speed in reacting/acting on it spells shit street for the Actor, Lee.
Lee is smart on film, choreographed, sure.
But Im sure you'll agree that scripts and compliancy are out the window here.
Ali thrashes Lees ass, then beats him at chess lol
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Last edited by Sadako of Girth on Feb 9th, 2011 at 07:40 PM
Assuming we are talking Ali versus Lee when they were each at their physical best, Ali at his best could dance on his toes for 15 straight rounds while punching pretty much continuously and barely be winded. I very seriously doubt any MMA fighter could pull that off today.
Ali is a much larger man who is also in excellent shape. It would stand to reason that he should be the more powerful of the two.
This is a good point. The taller man as a heavy advantage over a short man, being able to keep his opponant at the end of his jab if he's any good at jabbing, and of course Ali was the master. This forces the smaller man to be the aggressor in order to get inside of the jab, but Ali's own 'intercepting fist' technique combined with his agility (he used to have people throw rocks at him so he could dodge them) would keep Lee in a continuous state of frustration.
I would argue that Ali and Lee were equally fast, with equal skill in technique, which means the win would go to the fighter with the size/strength advantage. Also Ali's chin was made of granite, while Lee's ability to take a punch is 100% unknown. This is not insignificant.
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Ok people, whoever says Ali would even stand a chance needs to watch the Randy Couture vs James Toney fight. That is what happens when those boxers try to go head to head with a powerful martial artist.
Its a no contest show. Ali tried to kick he will already have stepped over to uncharted territory and Lee would punish him severly. He sticks to his punching and hes already got a sever handicap. There is just no way a boxer has enough to work with against a guy like Bruce.
At his prime, Ali would've beaten up both Couture and Toney at the same time. Ali and Toney's styles and skill sets are so different, your comparison was difficult to take seriously.
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Jul 25th, 2010 09:53 PM
