Wasn't completely obvious in the movie. It's the missing scene from the script that makes it more clear.
All the post ROTS material simply says Yoda failed to defeat him. Well he did fail to beat him but from a tactical disadvantaged position. Jumping around the edge of the senate pod in the Saber fight, and with Sidious having the high ground in the Force fight.
Sidious tried flee from Yoda twice. First when he felt his power. Second time into the Senate chamber. He tries his best to survive getting any tactical advantage he could.
And btw I'm not saying Yoda's more powerful than the Emperor. He might not be. And I'm certain the Emperor's more powerful in the Force than Mace Windu.
But Sidious wasn't combat hardened for the last 10-15 years. In a combat situation either of the 2 most powerful Jedi can take him. Especially in a Lightsaber fight. (Mace with a lot more difficulty than Yoda though).
But a problem arises when Yoda relents and leaps away for no reason articulated in the script. Given how it portrays the fight to be overwhelmingly in favor of Yoda and Sidious was, at that critical point, already in a position of tremendous disadvantage: weaponless, in close quarters, and his lightning being deflected... I'm unsure what would have caused Yoda to flee. Which is perhaps why the scene didn't make it into the film?
No, many flat out say that Yoda was outmatched. I put most of my sources away, but I still have the Atlas (pg. 154): "Yoda could not withstand the Emperor's Sith powers. He fled, regrouping at the Polis Massa asteroids."
Yoda fled from Sidious at the conclusion of the duel. Are we to infer he is weaker?
Given that Sidious's initial strike was far more potent than Yoda's retaliatory push, I'm unconvinced that it was because Sidious concluded the inevitability of his own demise.
That sounds like him.
I don't dispute the idea that Yoda's lightsaber prowess exceeded the Emperor's.
Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Land of Little Cubes and Tea
Well thats rather different since the novel is something that is licensed and recognised within canon. Its an actual product. The script is not. It is literally just the notes for the movie, and in this case Lucas decided not to use it for the actual movie.
Yes it was written by the man himself.... and then not used in the movie. Lucas made the specific choice not to use that scene. And he made that choice early since they didn't even film it. Its non-canon.
I'm not seeking to undermine the importance of the script; I have absolutely no problem with the idea that Yoda overcame Sidious blade-to-blade, since one is a confirmed master of all 7 forms (The Complete Clone Wars Encyclopedia) and the other isn't known to have touched a lightsaber in over a decade. But the script portrays the entire conflict to be unusually lopsided... even though, later, Yoda laments to Qui-Gon about it:
Yes but does that mean it didn't happen? It does fill the gap in between the scenes we see.
Perhaps if Lucas decided to film that scene then then he would have added something for that to make sense e.g. The Emperor leaps to another pod before Yoda can strike him down.
Well I would question that statement simply because the movie showed Yoda withstanding Sidious's Sith powers did it not? Yoda just fell further. I wouldn't think that was anything to do with being less powerful.
No, but he had lost at that point. He took a huge fall and considering both the AOTC novel and script state Yoda was exhausted after his little tumble with Count Dooku, I'm sure he would have been more than exhausted with his all out against a more powerful Sith Lord.
Which is why I believe the script version of the fight. That and the fact it describes a scene in between the ones we see, so explains how the fight got there.
^ There's no doubt Yoda failed. However that doesn't mean he wasn't a superior combatant. The fight didn't exactly take place on neutral ground. Jumping from Pod to Pod. Obi-Wan also defeated a much more dangerous combatant than himself by taking advantage of an uneven terrain.
Plus Yoda knew he probably wouldn't get another chance at an assassination attempt like that.
Btw I wonder if Sidious will pick up his Lightsaber once in the clone wars to possibly kill Savage Opress??
Last edited by DARTH POWER on May 6th, 2012 at 02:28 AM
Registered: Apr 2011
Location: Hollywood, Hiding from fame
At no point does that reference Yoda being inferior to Sidious in saber combat, which was the point in contention.
Everything we know about the fight, from the frame-by-frame captures I showed to the script which framed the fight to the original computerized behind-the-scenes from the Blu-Ray all lead us to conclude one thing: on neutral ground, Sidious didn't have a snowball's chance in hell at defeating Yoda in saber combat.
What you're attempting to do here (poorly, I might add) is cast some kind of doubt on this by using selected sources to support the idea of "defeat = Yoda's inferiority". That argument cannot be sustained. Yoda is conclusively superior to Sidious in saber combat, and moreover as we saw also in the film, superior in Force usage.
From a position of complete disadvantage, Yoda turned the lightning around on Sidious utterly. The pod throwing contest ended in Sidious fleeing from an upwards-shot pod rather than exert any Force power to deflect or stop it himself. The implications are very strong that Sidious can only win this fight by tactical advantage and dirty tricks, as Yoda is his superior.
^ This is a red herring.
Confirmation of reference materials which themselves derive answers from primary canon material of victory are not conclusively proving of skill. After all, Richard I died of a crossbow-bolt during a siege. In a neutral setting, the peasant who fired the shot would be utterly destroyed by the king; why would we assume their skill levels are "close" or some such simply by virtue of a generalization?
The answer is we wouldn't. The G-canon material clearly shows Sidious being overmatched. An attempt to "spin" that in another direction is merely a confirmation of bias against all reason.
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When Galactic enters his ultimate BS pimp mode, they call him Marka Ragnos.
The script implies that Yoda is faster still than Sidious, armed, and deflecting the Force lightning. What you're suggesting is that a slower, unarmed, weaker Sidious managed to elude Yoda in close quarters combat and put tremendous distance between the two of them without Yoda immediately pursuing. That appears to me to be an irreconcilable contradiction. Not to mention the script doesn't account for Sidious's travel from the Chancellor's podium to the distant Senate pod; after the two clash blades, the fight is interrupted by Anakin's duel with Obi-Wan. When it returns, Sidious has already abandoned the podium and has taken position on a platform, with Yoda finishing his leap from the podium in pursuit. The script, on the other hand, depicts Yoda fleeing and Sidious remaining on the podium.
He withstood the Emperor's Sith powers by falling? Perhaps the writers are cleverer than we thought. Cheeky bastards.
Precisely, the point being that one need not necessarily be an inferior duelist to opt for a tactical retreat.
I submit that Sidious could have been disarmed without relying on the script's flawed representation of events.
The context of his discussion with spirit!Qui-Gon is what's important to examine: it begins with a lament for his failure to defeat Sidious and Qui-Gon consoles him by assuring Yoda that he'll achieve a power greater than any JediSith. Contextually, it would appear that Yoda felt he lacked the power to end the Sith threat.
There is no contention on that subject; what's being discussed is the degree to which Yoda enjoys superiority.
LucasFilm employees (and authors of the various guides and supplementary material released since) would disagree with what you claim to be a painfully obvious conclusion. Given that they have very likely seen ROTS, have access to at least as much information as ourselves, and are examined and edited thoroughly by LucasFilm authorities (such as Leland Chee or Sue Rostini, editor-in-chief), I remain skeptical.
What you're attempting to do here (poorly, I might add) is assert yourself as a higher authority than the very people who are employed by LucasFilm to define and explore the universe created by George Lucas, which is an argument that cannot be sustained unless your driver's license says George Lucas.
With extreme effort and physical pain, and even then was still hurled aside like a wrinkly green scrotum squeezed into a burlap condom.
He was also laughing into the back of his hand moments prior, too amused to even capitalize on his advantage during Yoda's preoccupation.
Given that he knocked Yoda unconscious, laughed at him at various points, and conclusively disarmed him rather casually, I submit that the implication is what is reflected in the film and subsequent EU material: Sidious outclasses Yoda.
Interesting that you concede the reference materials derive their answers from primary canon material... yet neglect the part that their conclusion differs from the one you offer. Doesn't that suggest you're wrong?
If the reference guides' assertion of victory are situational, I would agree.
According to you. According to canon sources, he was not.
I realize you suffer from a chronic condition that compels you to rabidly accuse others of bias, conspiracy, and general dishonesty whenever they disagree with you, but try to leash your insecurity plz.
Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Land of Little Cubes and Tea
So are you going to reply to my post or not? Because I still disagree on the script having any degree of canonicity in adding scenes that weren't in the movie.
Look here pudwacker. Your opinion on whether something is canon or not does not canon make. The script is confirmed G-canon, whether you like it or not. Get over it. Since the script doesn't DIRECTLY contradict other parts of the movie, there is no real issue.
__________________ "Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate."
The Holocron, which is purposed to set forth continuity/canon and which is maintained by Lucas Licensing confirms that the final releases of all six films, the movie novelizations, the radio dramas that are based on the films, the film scripts, and any material found in any other source (published or not) that comes directly from George Lucas himself is to be considerd G-canon (i.e. absolute canon).
__________________ "Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate."
__________________ "Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate."
May 5th, 2012 03:27 PM
