About Snape killing Dumbldore - can we be certain that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to help him - how about this Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to KILL him - to save himself and Draco...and that look of 'revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face' were about himself he had to kill Dumbledore and hated himself for it.
I mean although we know that no one has been allowed to touch or harm Harry, thats for the Dark Lord he still protects harry, stops the death eaters cruciatus curse....although it still contradicts with the 1st thing that a true deatheater would leave him to the Dark Lord.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: Hmmm. I don't think Snape is evil, a nasty bit of work perhaps, and his actions in the Half Blood Prince were certainly off putting, but really evil? It doesn't seem in character for the author to do things like that.
And really, it is a mark on Dumbledore's record. Dumbledore believed whole heartedly in Snape, 100%, and to pretty much everyone Dumbledore is the very embodiment of good. If it turns out he was truly wrong about Snape it will almost be as if Malfoy was correct in what he said to Dumbledore - "He's a double-agent you stupid old man, he isn't working for you..." And from the way Rowling has handled the character of Dumbledore I doubt the last thing she would want to do is have him remembered for being "a stupid old man" who against all evidence believed in Snape when virtually nobody else did. They believed in, and trusted, Dumbledore, because you knew you could put your faith in Dumbledore, but if he could be so wrong...
Likewise there is the the fact of Snape taking over Defense Against the Dark arts. It seems telling that he gets the job just at that moment. One can only imagine Dumbledore thought it would be important for him to teach, after all Slughorn could probably have taken the job, but not done it as well as Snape. And there is his closing dialogue with Harry, why would Snape, who is fleeing from a castle full of *enemies* stop to say to Harry about how he does his magic (the whole mind closed mouth shut bit) A taunt perhaps, but also advice? Then there are other little bits and pieces, and the fact it seems doubtful that Dumbledore was begging Snape for his life. So if Dumbledore wasn't begging for that, what was he begging for? So I think there is more to Snape then meets the eye, more then just being a cape villain with a moustache to twirl.
__________________
From even the greatest of horrors irony is seldom absent.
Last edited by Imperial_Samura on Aug 6th, 2005 at 03:42 PM
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: but for doing an unforgivable curse you must hate the person and you must enjoy killing the person (Belatrix said that in the 5th Book)
and if Snape is or was on DDs side, then he wasnt able to kill DD
so I think Snape is on LVs side
__________________ 'Yes,' said Harry stiffly.
'Yes sir.'
'There's no need to call me "sir", Professor.'
not neccesarily. He used to be a Death Eater, meaning he has done the Unforgivable Cuses before, and He was the best at Dark Arts when he was at school. he made his own dark art spells.
Actually that's not really true. We see that in the context of the Crucio Harry used on her, and I think that's what she was referring to, how for it to really hurt, the person using it needs to mean it, to want to cause pain, which is what she said. The killing one kills, but it looks painless, and if it could only be used on a person the caster hates, then it's effectiveness would be limited as a death eater can't hate every body they have to kill. However anybody can use them. Harry did use the pain one, and tried it on other occasions, various Death Eaters have done so, even Umbridge seemed willing and able to use the pain one.
__________________
From even the greatest of horrors irony is seldom absent.
Oh yes, I agree with that, but I was just saying how hate isn't necessary to use the unspeakable curses. A good or bad person can use the pain one, only a good person can't make it really hurt as they aren't sadistic (which is what Bellatrix said at the end of book 5 basically, that to cause real pain you've got to enjoy it)
There has never really been any indication that the killing one or the domination one are limited though, it comes down to a persons inherent goodness, I almost think that Harry could probably have used it on Snape and Bellatrix at the end of book 5 and 6, but as he is good he wouldn't, but if he wanted to he could, or to any body else, he wouldn't have to hate them first, just want to kill the target.
__________________
From even the greatest of horrors irony is seldom absent.
'Never used an Unforgivable Curse bevore, have you, boy?' she yelled....'You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain - to enjoy it - ....'
I think this is for all 3 Curses
__________________ 'Yes,' said Harry stiffly.
'Yes sir.'
'There's no need to call me "sir", Professor.'
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Just gonna say, even though I haven't read it yet, I believe Snape isn't all evil. I already know he kills Dumbledore as some moron (n00bslayer) posted in the welcome forum just to piss everyone off In my as yet ignorant opinion, Snape did what he had to do for the 'greater good'. Dumbledore may have said to Snape at some point in the past that if it came to it, if he had to, he must do anything to stay in LV's good books... it may well turn out {although Snape professes to be working for LV, whilst working for Dumbledore under 'false pretences'}, that there's a double twist and Snape was actually working with Dumbledore all along. Back and forth logic, I know, but I think Dumbledore deserves way more credit than he's getting... he probably knew the time would come for something like this and would do anything, including sacrifice himself, to protect Harry. In theory
But, as I said, I haven't read it yet... I'm just hypothesising
Oh, and as for the Unforgivable Curses being used by only those who really want to cause pain, I think Snape is more than capable of training himself to do something he really doesn't want to do. I'm not saying he enjoyed it, but he knew he had to get it done. Simple as that.
ok ive mentioned it before this whole thing about priori incantatum and them not being able to duel...and well in the Leaky/Muggle interview with JK a few weeks ago JK said that the look of triumph Harry saw in Dumbledores eyes was EXTREMELY important to the plot of the book...so what if the look of triumph was that they can now touch one another ..and so can kill each other without using wands...although it would make more sense if Voldemort was unable to touch Harry without feeling immense pain...i dunno it made sense at the time..
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Aug 3rd, 2005 06:34 PM
In my as yet ignorant opinion, Snape did what he had to do for the 'greater good'. Dumbledore may have said to Snape at some point in the past that if it came to it, if he had to, he must do anything to stay in LV's good books... it may well turn out {although Snape professes to be working for LV, whilst working for Dumbledore under 'false pretences'}, that there's a double twist and Snape was actually working with Dumbledore all along. Back and forth logic, I know, but I think Dumbledore deserves way more credit than he's getting... he probably knew the time would come for something like this and would do anything, including sacrifice himself, to protect Harry. In theory 
