quote: (post)

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Yes but ancient sith knowledge grew greater over time not lesser (up until sids that is) so some of the knowledge ragnos may have had just not all of it or maybe even most of it.

quote: (post)

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Yes but ancient sith knowledge grew greater over time not lesser (up until sids that is) so some of the knowledge ragnos may have had just not all of it or maybe even most of it.

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Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Malak was weaker then Revan and betrayed him.
Sidious was weaker than plagueis and murdered him.
Nihilus and Sion teamed up on Kreia and Kreia was only stronger than Sion.

Still. What's up with that reasoning ? In the Sith Empire after Bane there was only one Dark Lord and one apprentice (Sith Lord). In Ragnos times there was one Dark Lord and at least 20 Sith Lords. And none of them ever tried or at least not succeeded in take him.



Again you call that logic ? We know that Malak was not far inferior to Revan. Yet Malak was not able to kill Kavar when Kavar came to confront him although Kavar had a hard time to escape. Still the fact that he escaped out of a duel tells you that Malak is not far more powerful than him and Revan is not far more powerful compared to Malak. So in conclusion Kavar can't be far inferior to Revan.
Now we see the Exile (DS) defeating 3 Jedi Council members at once in direct combat while Kreia killed them with an (unknown) force attack. So...how powerful they really were ?



There is only one source for Revans dark side knowledge and that is Malachor V while his source for artifacts is Korriban. One planet filled with the knowledge of the ancient Sith Lords and another one filled with artifacts of the ancient Sith Lords. Now Revan did only plunder that stuff.



Oh great. Revan discovered artifacts including the gauntlets of Ragnos. Now that things make him more powerful but don't have an effect on their creators ?



Yes, but he couldn't use them all at once.



So Tarkin has to be powerful enough to blow up stars to control the death star. The only proof you have to be powerful to control the star forge is that many (minor) force users failed to do it. That's like saying: Because a padawan can not do something, Yoda can also not do it.

And still your oppinion is that Revan (plundering the ancient Sith Lords artifacts and learning their knowledge) must be more powerful than the ancient Sith Lords themselves. I still don't get it.

quote: (post)

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now Frobo...really...that is simply stupid.

Ragnos reign marked the highest point of Sith knowledge. From that point on it declined. That's a fact. If you don't believe me just watch the Sith history.

Sadow: Most impressive thing done with Sith magic was blow a star up
Nadd: Most impressive thing done with Sith magic was singlehandly defeat the entire army of beast masters on Onderon
Kun: Most impressive things done with Sith magic were freezing the Senate on Coruscant and draining the the lifeforce of hundrets of Massasi

So there is a decline in knowledge and power as you can see. Revan never did something compareable and the most impressive Sith techniques he used were the dark side abilities available in KotoR I. And they are nothing compared to the ability to destroy a star.

quote: (post)

Originally posted by Fishy
Actually Janus although I agree that Ragnos will win, your points here are based on just as much assumptions as that of those that say Revan will win. I find it incedibly funny that everybody uses assumptions mostly based on logic to prove their points and both critize the other for doing it. Yeah there are assumptions about Revan his power there is no doubt about that, but thats because we don't know he did some things because its a game. Everything about Ragnos is an assumption but using a little bit of logical thinking and you could easily come to the right conclusion.



Will do



Lets see, Malak defeated Kavar right? On his own otherwise it would not have been an achievement worth mentioning. So Kavar lost, Kavar was also said to be the most powerful of the Jedi Masters or at least the best fighter. Seeing as the entire army of Revan and Malak existed out of Jedi you can easily assume they were weaker then Kavar even the councillors that joined Revan his army, you can only assume that they would be to scared to move against Malak, who since then probably only became stronger. Same thing goes for Ragnos really now doesn't it. He beats the most powerful therefor he must be the most powerful, others are to scared to move against that and rightfully so.



Ask yourself this, would Canderous consider it honorable if Revan used a billion troops to kill Mandalore, would the Echani talk about Yussanis if his dead was weak? Would people even say how great Revan was by killing the last if he let troops do it? No, of course not. And from all we know about Revan its pretty clear that he always wants to test himself. Always wants to improve, you really can not argue that. So why would he walk away from a great challenge? There is no logic behind it.



There is nothing in Kotor I or Kotor II that claims anything like that, however it is you yourself who has once argued that Revan had his own style, I still agree with that. That style however far from covers all style's thats just freaking impossible.



You are right here there is no proof otherwise..



I never really understood the point of Malachor either, but it corrupts as hell apparently, but the power there at the start of Kotor II is amazing, I mean its that power that made Nihilus and Sion, what that means about Revan? I don't know. Still he resisted the Dark Side of a Dark planet, hardly means anything really.



Well you have his robes, but still... And we don't know if he's alive or dead? Janus come on now thats just weak, we know damn well he is alive. You know as well as I do that Revan was supposed to be in the ending of Kotor II meaning he was still alive at that time. Now you could say that doesn't count because he wasn't there, thats fine but then think of this. The cave, you confront Revan at the very end the last thing the Exile will do of importance or perhaps the last thing he will do. Everything else in that cave already happened, the confrontation with Revan will happen as well, its only logical that it will happen.



For somebody who has played Kotor II nine times I would not have expected this, remember that thing that Kreia says about Revan always being himself, light or dark were just tools for him to reach what he wanted. It really doesn't matter what side Revan is going to be, as long as he stays himself. If he does that his attacks will have the furry and passion in it that they need as well as the control, really I hardly think it matters. Because Revan does not let himself be controlled by either one of the sides, he uses both.



Maybe not, but for all we know Malak could have been as powerful as Exar Kun, based on nothing but its an assumption just like what you said, a very stupid assumption but I have seen plenty of those in this thread.



Kotor I childhood friends, Its said by several people. Including Zak or something who taught Revan so he could know.



That wouldn't explain how the Rakatan used it for many years even after the dead of their first leaders... So what the hell kind of logic is this, the Star Forge was not sabotaged as you claimed in another post, the only one smart enough to do something like that was Revan, and he would have no reason to make the Star Forge so that only he and Malak could use it, saying Malak could never use it was a golden way to make sure he reigned longer.



Seeing Revan is legendaric in his time because of his knowledge you can only assume he's smart, denying this is like denying what Ragnos did is impressive. Simple logic again.



Far from...

All I see happening here is fighting assumptions with assumptions, the funny thing is however is that now the assumptions on Revan are being attacked when most of them have far more credibility then those of Ragnos. Still those few things that we know about Ragnos makes him damn powerful more powerful then Revan. But don't try attacking those assumptions on Revan, as long as i'm around i'll defend them to the end because half of them are made by me and I wouldn't have made them if they didn't make a shit load of sense.

quote: (post)

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
The first point merely shows that the strongest doesn't always rule that's all.

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Revan hardcore pwns malak, malak>kavar Revan hardcore pwns kavar.
Korriban also had knowledge inside the tombs and such.

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Yes ragnos's gauntlets did make him powerful but not as powerful as if he had all the other mentioned artifacts.

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My opinion is that Revan has more knowledge (sith knowledge growing not declining) and more artifacts and a large amount of raw potential.

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Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Malak was weaker then revan but betrayed him for the throne
Sidious was weaker then plaguesis but did the same
Traya was weaker then nhilus (including his eating ability) yet ruled the three of them.

Revan is repeatedly cited as a powerful warrior as a known fact he beat two tentarak at once when a single one pwns a jedi master so lets see here logic time

Revan>tenterak>jedi master
or
Revan pwns kreia pwns three most powerful masters at once.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about, one of the sidequests is to help lashowe recover a holocron from a tuk'ata mother that holocron is tulaks.

Let's see logic time again Revan learned everything he could from all his sources, malachor=one of his sources.

The force is equally powerful on both sides he would have the same amount of power just in a different form if he was lightside or darkside.

Yeah multiple artifacts:
Tulaks holocron
Tulaks headband
Ragnos's gauntlets
Palls sword
sadows sword

before that there are multiple quotes saying that revan had sith search for and bring many artifacts to him.

Him being alive..truth is I don't really care even if he did die fine so there's someone more powerful then him, a good judge of his power is think kreia then a bit more so on the grounds that he has as much if not more potential then she does and the same if not more knowledge.

Malak and revan were best friends that were together since before the mandalorian wars and being the same age they were probably trained together as well.

You have to be powerful enough to harness a star end of story as far as the star forge is concerned,

He has a lifetime of training from powerful masters learning from the entire jedi archive (kreia says so) and then from malachor and korriban both are planets full of darkside knowledge and according to kreia he learned everything he could and she also said his potential for knowledge was nearly unlimited.

And janus next time you use an ownage picture make sure it's not one you've stolen from the exact person your using it on lol.

quote: (post)

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Janus your throwing that stuff out there purley out of spite.

certain things in the game have to be accomplished in order to beat it things like beating two tenatrak.

As for the knowledge we know that both planets had lots of sith knowledge malachor being called a warehouse full of info.

What each side does is irrelevant they both have the same amount of power to fraw from also jedi are not above using darkside techniques should need be:

also for the artifacts revan has to raid at least two tombs (along with other things)to pass the trials

Luke used choke
windu used crush
revan could have used others
exile could have used others

as for keeping the throne there are numerous possibilities all i'm doing is throwing them out there because at the moment we simply don't have enough on ragnos to be able to say that he would win so it's a possibility he would beat revan it's a possibility he won't and you can't prove up and if i try to you'll attack everything I say out of spite, neither of us ultimatley will be able to prove why our charachter would win we'll merely have a list of reasons the other guy wouldn't this is futile no one can win this as we simply don't have enough info on ragnos end of story.

quote: (post)

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I'm not doing this out of spite. I'm frankly sick of you and Emperor Revan carrying on like your the paragons of truth, when your arguments are -as flimsy- as Ragnos', the key difference being their is a better reason to fear and respect Ragnos than there is Revan, personally. Now, I may never convince you and that's okay. But you both have gone way out of your way to contest our decisions and yet have nothing to back it up. You can't even 100% support your own character in ANY fight, seeing as you must make similar assumptions all the time.

Such as...

- The assumption that because you had to do so in game Revan had to do so in the canonical story.

- The assumption that all that "lots of Sith knowledge" helped make Revan even on a level to last twenty seconds with an ancient Sith before his time.

- The assumption that all that knowledge wasn't Ragnos' (Seeing as he did rule for a century and a half)

- The assumption that since you had to raid at least two tombs in game Revan neccessarily HAd to raid them in game and that he found all these artifacts and kept them. And that in assuming he kept them, this means anything in relation to his power compared to Ragnos.

- The horrible assumption that both sides are about the same.

- The assumption that Luke in ROTJ abides by the Jedi code.

- The assumption that because Revan and the Exile are fully customizable (One of the key facts for marketing the game was that it was make your own SW jedi) they neccessarily used both sides.

- The assumption I am doing this out of spite.

There you have it.

quote: (post)

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
First off certain things HAD to be done or else you couldn't beat the game, revan had to do certain things on korriban he had no choice otherwise he would not have learned the location of the star forge.

I never said they used both sides I said possibly

And the rest of the assumptions are no worse then assumptions that ragnos supportewrs have made some are slightly more logical.

I don't do this because I like revan he's a fictional charachter and not even my favourite one I do this to show you that there isn't enough info to make a clear descision like I said way earlier in this debate.