Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Hey, looks like I missed another DS versus NF battle. Just like to add this little factor:
Dooku's lightning (Which he strangely doesn't use against the duo in ROTS... could it be he was holding back?) is considerable when you consider he does it ONE HANDED. So I could argue that Dooku stalemated Yoda to a much greater degree than Sidious did (When you consider that Yoda actually reversed the flow of lightning back onto Sidious from a leaning position at point blank range) using ONLY ONE HAND!
So I guess by appearance, Dooku is mightier than his master.
Or is this where I become a fanboy for not supporting your claims, DS?
Lol whatever Janus. Whatever, I'm not gonna argue with you anymore or Nai. Think what you want about Sidious. But Dooku was his pet. His pawn. His tool. Dooku feared Sidious. You explain to me THAT. And it's amazing how he never tried to usurp Sidious's mantle. And you think it all through manipulation? Damn. I guess Sidious is smarter than what you give him credit for.
Secondly. Nai called me a fanboy. Ironically, I have stated many times that Sidious would end up dead and that Dooku would land the killing blow. But like I said. If you think Dooku is far superior to Sidious, go right ahead. But remember this.
1. Sidious was the master. Count Dooku was not.
2. Sidious used Count Dooku like a pawn.
3. Count Dooku feared betraying Sidious (according to Dark Rendezvous)
4. Sidious has a superior knowledge of the Force - that much is damn obvious.
5. Star Wars.com states that Sidious was the most powerful practitioner of the Force in modern times. The Republic vs Separatist war is to be considered modern times. But lemme guess. It's not canon or accurate, right?
Now. Of course I'm sure both you and Nai will excuse these and go on with your little fetish. But these are hard facts. Count Dooku never once tried to betray his master. And Count Dooku - one of the wealthiest beings in the galaxy, a Jedi Knight, a political idealist - bowed down and willingly served Sidious. Now, tell me. WHY.
If Count Dooku is better, then why the HELL serve Sidious? Lemme guess...because he felt like it? Or because he just got bored and wanted something to do?
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Like I said, Dooku appears mightier than Sidious if you consider that fact. I personally think they excel in their own personal areas, but the gap is nowhere large enough for Dooku to have no choice but to bow down. I think he has his own reasons, and perhaps he saw Sidious as a means to an end in more ways than one. Personally, take it up with GL, since he's the reason we have no insight into Dooku's motives. Dooku was never meant to be a large character, nor was Mace Windu. Yoda appeared to a lot of people to be stronger than Sidious, as did Mace Windu and Count Dooku. But Sidious' fate was sealed; he was in the OT. So naturally GL can't have him get totally rocked, can he?
But Count Dooku was wrong. Sidious used him - not the other way around. Yes, Sidious did get in the OT. Dooku couldn't have, as their had to be Vader. So that explains why Dooku was killed off.
But obviously, Dooku had to be inferior in some way to be the Apprentice. If he did it for his own reasons, he wouldn't have had the fear or the loyalty to Sidious that he did. We know Sidious pwns Dooku in Dark Side knowledge - which is what I think Dooku wanted.
So. Whether or not Dooku is better than Sidious is up to debate. But we know that in knowledge of the Force, Sidious is far greater than Dooku - so that might be the reason Dooku joined him. But I doubt Sidious was weaker than Dooku. Not in Force-powers, anyways.
For example. Perhaps Yoda's ability to deflect Force lightning with his bare hands came from his 800 or more years in the Force. From what we know, Dooku did not have the connection with the Force that his master had. Sidious could cloak himself from the entire Jedi Order. Perhaps that was a power given to him by his stronger connection with the Dark Side than Dooku.
That makes sense. Even if Dooku was capable of beating him - Sidious was still too strong in the Dark Side and too clever for Dooku to actually DO it.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
We know that Sidious had more SITH knowledge than Dooku, yes. Sidious had little to no direct jedi training, however, and in that regard Dooku was superior. Dooku was also the superior duellist, but Sidious had the better ties to the political system. Read again, Dooku was a political idealist... he obviously felt he could learn from Sidious and in turn for helping him achieve a politcal system that resembled his new order.
To assume that Sidious had such superior Force powers and this cowed Dooku is pretty lazy of an explanation and doesn't seemt to have much proof behind it.
I dunno, Janus. I find it hard to believe for Count Dooku - if he was superior to Sidious - to bow down. He did. And he was afraid of betraying him, as you noted. Now. Dooku is already a wanted man in Republic space during the times of Dark Rendezvous, so it can't be for Sidious to "turn him in". Something about Sidious intimidated Dooku. And to deny that would be lying. It hints that Sidious made Dooku feel like a child again.
Sidious was stronger in the Dark Side than Dooku. This isn't really speculation. More so, common sense. Dooku can't have been too much better than Sidious in anything - otherwise Dooku would've never joined him. Dooku always struck me as a person who wanted knowledge and to make himself superior. He possesses precious little knowledge of the Dark Side or the Sith ways when comparing himself to Sidious.
In appearance, it may seem Dooku could've beat Sidious. But Sidious is never one to reveal all of his tricks, and their is more proof to insinuate that Dooku is not leagues above his master.
Perhaps Sidious manipulated Dooku into fearing him. Sidious is quite capable of manipulating even Dooku, as we saw in Revenge of the Sith. But I will not budge from my stance that Sidious was stronger connected to the Dark Side - and possessed more knowledge of it than Dooku ever dreamed of.
To excuse Dooku's joining Sidious as a "smart political move" is also rather stupid. Did he honestly believe Sidious would be a fair and just ruler? If so, Dooku is much dumber than I thought - and he is very clever, as we've seen.
So. We know:
1. Sidious possesses far more knowledge of the Dark Side than Dooku.
2. Sidious SEEMS to possess a stronger connection to the Force than Dooku.
3. Sidious can manipulate Dooku practically whenever he feels.
4. Count Dooku fears Sidious - and fears betraying him.
Am I to assume you mean that Dooku fears Sidious because Sidious is the better politician? Like I said, I doubt it. Either Dooku isn't more powerful than Sidious as some of you like to believe - or Sidious just manipulated Dooku into fearing him.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
That last part in particular is twisting my words. Dooku does not fear Sidious out of political reasons, but chiefly joined him for politcal and knowledge gain. And then after Dooku apparently murdered Sifo Dyas in order to prove himself worthy of Sith lore (LOE) at which point he felt there was no way to turn back. He also felt the same way in Dark Rendesvouz, and he was jealous of Skywalker for being the council's new prodigy when Dooku himself was the prodigy before him.
No, Dooku had many reasons to be against the jedi council and the Republic and more than a few to remain with Sidious. It was an alliance of conveniance as well as obediance. I do not doubt that Dooku was the apprentice, but if he was, it was only in Sith lore and nothing else.
And if Sidious' sith lore was well more than either of us could imagine, it would only make sense if Sidious had the compiled lore of the Sith before him for the last thousand years. And even then it barely allowed him to win against Yoda, so so much for "amazing Force mastery".
Lol, Janus, you know I'm beginning to think you believe Dooku outclasses Sidious in just about everything, and then what he doesn't, Sidious is only SLIGHTLY better. Yeah, lol. But that's okay. Your opinion isn't necessarily right, either. Only Lucas knows.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
True, only Lucas knows. But you like to make a point of Sidious being the master so neccessarily he must be that much better than Dooku, and it's kinda the same thing in every thread where you post and where they are both involved.
Sidious loses this duel. My opinion hasn't changed.
Sidious knows more about the Dark Side, is stronger in the Dark Side, and manipulated Dooku everytime - proving not only is he stronger in the Force - but also smarter than Dooku.
Of course, you'll argue Sidious's superior intellect, too, I'm sure.
And you, my friend, along with Nai - like to make a point that Sidious sucked, and only his accomplishments are based on luck and catching people off guard. Lol. Pathetic. And you say I'm bad? Use common sense. Lucas sure as hell wouldn't have made Sidious the master if he was so much damn weaker than Dooku. So either he's a hell of a lot more powerful or a hell of a lot smarter. Which do you think? Lemme guess. Neither?
Aug 23rd, 2005 07:18 PM
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