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Is Wolverine a better character with or without Adamantium
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With Adamantium 26 66.67%
Without Adamantium 10 25.64%
The Same 3 7.69%
Total: 39 votes 100%
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Wolverine: With or Without Adamantium
Started by: TheKahn

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willRules
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An adamantium skeleton used to be unique, now everyone and their mother is getting one these days............


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Old Post Sep 8th, 2005 07:49 PM
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Rave X
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I liked him best without, pretty much for the reasons giving here:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Onikirimaru
I say without as well, ironically for the same reason as the first post. Getting his bones broken and beat, and then comming back from that is much more a show of indominable will that "Ha ha, you can punch me all day but my adamantium skull is indestructable" stuff. He was much more feral more animalistic, more tough, to take on people without his adamantium, and it gave the character impact as well since Magneto took his adamantium. It was like a real turning point in the character, an epic you can look back on, but then, like most things, the made somethin up to give it back to him, just like Magneto gets getting revived or what have you. They are too afraid to deviate from their little formula once they get a couple bad fan letters in the mail.


But his bone claws are uglier than his adamantium ones, that always irritated me in the comic.

So, guess I have to go for either way...


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Old Post Sep 8th, 2005 08:07 PM
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With.


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Old Post Sep 8th, 2005 10:16 PM
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wannabe
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by kichiku_beihei
I think thats a negative my friend. If his joints are not covered with adimantium, or connected somehow to the bone, how would it be possible for Wolverine to have his original skeleton. He's been thrown through buildings, hit by trucks, planes, jumped off of heli-carriars into buildings going god knows how fast, been burnt by the fricking SUN, been KFC'ed by sentinal death lasers, bullets and crap loads of more things, and not once has he ever lost a limb, or a pinkie.

Now in the Xavier Protoco's, Xavier could not find a conventional way to kill Wolverine with his adimantium skeleton (it says so last I checked). It wasn't until Magneto tore out his adimantium that Xavier found a some what more conventional way of killing Wolverine. Also, in the protocol's, it is explicitly said that hiw head must always remain detahced and far away from his main body so that his nerves/muscles/fleshy things, can not reconnect.

Thus concluding that his joints are not only laced with adimantium, but also some how connected directly to his bones. How? No idea. But I know I proved my point Happy Dance

You only proved that some authors have absolutely NO IDEA of anatomy!!! yes

I had extensive anatomy lessons during my studies at university and i tell you, there is absolutely NO WAY his joint's can work if they should be covered with adamantium.
The metal may cover the bone surfaces but the tissue that connects the different bones has to be flexible, otherwise he couldn't move a single part of his body.
Why he doesn't loose any limbs (except during AoA...his left hand...and in ultimate...while Spidey was inside his body, he accidentally cut off one of his fingers...which proves MY point,btw)???
The answer is...EXAGGERATION !!!!!!!!!!!!

Btw...if we wanted to be precise, joints are not CONNECTED to the bones, they are build up by those surface parts of two or more bones that will articulate with each other, cartilage, ligaments and a fluidic substance!
Hope the picture helps you to understand! smile

Attachment: neck joints.jpeg
This has been downloaded 106 time(s).


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Old Post Sep 9th, 2005 10:24 AM
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kichiku_beihei
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by wannabe
You only proved that some authors have absolutely NO IDEA of anatomy!!! yes

I had extensive anatomy lessons during my studies at university and i tell you, there is absolutely NO WAY his joint's can work if they should be covered with adamantium.
The metal may cover the bone surfaces but the tissue that connects the different bones has to be flexible, otherwise he couldn't move a single part of his body.
Why he doesn't loose any limbs (except during AoA...his left hand...and in ultimate...while Spidey was inside his body, he accidentally cut off one of his fingers...which proves MY point,btw)???
The answer is...EXAGGERATION !!!!!!!!!!!!

Btw...if we wanted to be precise, joints are not CONNECTED to the bones, they are build up by those surface parts of two or more bones that will articulate with each other, cartilage, ligaments and a fluidic substance!
Hope the picture helps you to understand! smile


Last time I checked, Wolverine was a FICTIONAL character in a COMIC BOOK. I have extensive knowledge in literature, and trust me, in a FICTIONAL world, anything is possible. It doesn't have to make sense, and it doesn't have to have any logic behind it. Get over it. So if you're suggesting that all comic book writers need to have a doctorate in the sciences, to make FICTIONAL characters and their abilities logical, then you my friend, have no business reading FICTIONAL literature.


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Old Post Sep 9th, 2005 11:16 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by kichiku_beihei
Last time I checked, Wolverine was a FICTIONAL character in a COMIC BOOK. I have extensive knowledge in literature, and trust me, in a FICTIONAL world, anything is possible. It doesn't have to make sense, and it doesn't have to have any logic behind it. Get over it. So if you're suggesting that all comic book writers need to have a doctorate in the sciences, to make FICTIONAL characters and their abilities logical, then you my friend, have no business reading FICTIONAL literature.

No need to be pissed...my friend! roll eyes (sarcastic)

What you are talking about is COMIC LITERATURE ANARCHY!
When i follow your course of argumentation (which seems pretty emotional btw), it is ok when Archangel would fly in space, when cyclops would breathe under water, when Prof. X would survive a 1000 meter fall without a broken bone...it's a comic, it doesn't need logic or have to make any sense, anything is possible. Sad and boring scenario i say!

Given the case we accept that there are persons with super powers in the comic world, we see a pretty normal world in which normal sciences and laws of nature still exist (including anatomy) and the super abilities work within the boundaries of these sciences OR it's stated that it's their essence to bend or break the laws of nature (reality warping, "cosmic" powers etc.).

Wolverine has absolutely no power which bends or breaks any law of nature and while his mutation changes his biochemistry and cellular processes (healing factor), which we have to accept because it's his power, his anatomy is no different from any other comic or real world character...well, apart from the claws of course!

And NO, the writers do not need a doctorate (i don't have one either) but they could be a little more accurate from time to time.
In this special case you don't even need a high IQ or ANY knowledge about anatomy...every little child can imagine that it would be hard to move when your ankles, knees, elbows etc. were made of or covered with unbendable metal!


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Old Post Sep 9th, 2005 01:04 PM
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Creshosk
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We don't know what the bonding process did even. If they were bonded on a molecular level then that would mean that his bones would be virtually adamantium themselves. Now in order to keep his bones from ripping apart when ever he moves fast its concevable that some else was added to help hold the bones together. . . I mean we've seen often enough in 616 when things have been done that should have left him missing a limb or two. So there might have been something in the bonding process in 616 that keeps him together. . .


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Old Post Sep 9th, 2005 01:42 PM
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Emotional? Hardly. A little stimulated over inane comments. Maybe just a tad. Pretty much you just regurgitated what I wrote, but adding in little whisks of your commentary. It's either you accept that logic, natural laws, and so on, have zero relevance in a fictional world, or you believe that the comic world must obey logic and nonfictional laws. Pick a) or b). There is no wrong answer.

Comics are fueled by the imagination, not by sciences. I'm pretty sure shooting a beam of raw energy out of your eyes would definitely kill that person in oh so many ways. Having any sort of energy based powers would undoubtedly cause one self to explode when that person has no control over it. I can go on and on about every MU/DC/IH/TC characters scientific flaws, as can you.

quote:
it's a comic, it doesn't need logic or have to make any sense, anything is possible. Sad and boring scenario i say!


Again, if the fictional world is boring, why bother reading it. People read comics because things can happen there, that obviously can not happen here. I would recommend you go read Batman if you are not already. It is a nudge more logical scenario there laughing .


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Old Post Sep 9th, 2005 01:44 PM
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wannabe
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Creshosk
We don't know what the bonding process did even. If they were bonded on a molecular level then that would mean that his bones would be virtually adamantium themselves. Now in order to keep his bones from ripping apart when ever he moves fast its concevable that some else was added to help hold the bones together. . . I mean we've seen often enough in 616 when things have been done that should have left him missing a limb or two. So there might have been something in the bonding process in 616 that keeps him together. . .

Well, that's a lot of wishful thinking, isn't it?! huh

1) In AoA (just a variation of 616 from a point in time on, when Wolvie already had his metal) he lost a hand.
2) In Days Of Future Past (a possible future of the existing 616 where Wolvie already had his metal), when he gets incinerated, you can see that there is no connecting "molecular adamantium enriched" ligaments left between the bones.
3) In one comic (Earth X? I'm not sure.), Wolvies adamantium covered skull was taken from DOFP...and ONLY his skull. How, when the bones are held together with adamantium?


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Old Post Sep 9th, 2005 02:15 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by kichiku_beihei
...It's either you accept that logic, natural laws, and so on, have zero relevance in a fictional world, or you believe that the comic world must obey logic and nonfictional laws. Pick a) or b). There is no wrong answer.

Comics are fueled by the imagination, not by sciences. I'm pretty sure shooting a beam of raw energy out of your eyes would definitely kill that person in oh so many ways. Having any sort of energy based powers would undoubtedly cause one self to explode when that person has no control over it. I can go on and on about every MU/DC/IH/TC characters scientific flaws, as can you.

Absolutely right...in the case you described!
But in Marvel comics there ARE natural laws and normal sciences and every normal person there is described as to be bound to them. They are an integral part of that particular fictional world.
The super powers and super sciences are an addition that we have to accept when we want to read these comics...and we gladly do...that includes me.

My point is:
When Cyclops can shoot beams out of his eyes, it may go against known science and natural law BUT it's ok (even great) because that's his power.
In all other aspects he's described as a human being that is bound to the natural laws, existing even in Marvel comics.
Would he suddenly survive a hit of the Hulk without a bruise just for drama or something and later again reacts like a normal human to a punch of Gambit, it would be bullsh*t.
That's anarchy within the boundaries of this fictional universe and lessens the quality of the fiction (my opinion).

The same with Wolvie...
He can heal faster than it is possible within the boundaries of natural laws of Marvel universe but ok, it's his power.
In most other aspects (including anatomy, except the claws) he is a exceptionally trained but otherwise normal human. The metal is an artificial addition, without exceptional force not bendable and not part of his powers. So it would be bullsh*t when his joints were covered with adamantium and he could still move!
Colossus is made of metal, including his joints, but i would never have the idea to argue about that, because it's his power and within the frame of this universe organic metal simply IS flexible for him.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by kichiku_beihei
Again, if the fictional world is boring, why bother reading it. People read comics because things can happen there, that obviously can not happen here. I would recommend you go read Batman if you are not already. It is a nudge more logical scenario there laughing .

The boring thing is not the fiction itself. I mean, we're reading comics BECAUSE of the fiction.
The boring thing is, that when a character does something that he should not be able to do, according to the natural laws of the given world, it makes the whole thing more arbitrary and less special.
Example: Where is the specialty in Colossus nigh invulnerability, when even a person without it can take a Hulk-punch without any difficulties just because a writer thought it convenient...and it's fiction, so you can do EVERYTHING with the characters, even against the laws of the given world.


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Last edited by wannabe on Sep 9th, 2005 at 04:03 PM

Old Post Sep 9th, 2005 03:58 PM
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sapphiremouse
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sword in wolvies neck

quote: (post)
Originally posted by wannabe
Since his neck joints are not covered with adamantium (he couldn't move his head otherwise) it doesn't make any difference, whether his bones are covered or not...you could cut his head off in both cases! yes
It was a early issue but wolverine did survive a full sword swing into the neck and the sword broke. its not neck muscles that holds your head on its the spine, which is covered in adamantium.

Old Post Mar 27th, 2006 11:11 PM
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wannabe
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Re: sword in wolvies neck

quote: (post)
Originally posted by sapphiremouse
It was a early issue but wolverine did survive a full sword swing into the neck and the sword broke.
So what? huh
When the sword hits one of the vertebrae of the spine, it will most definitly break when the force behind it is great enough, cause the vertebrae are made of bone, thus covered with adamantium in Wolvies case.
A sword swung into his neck does not necessarily have to decapitate him, i never said that, but it could (read below).
quote: (post)
Originally posted by sapphiremouse
...its not neck muscles that holds your head on, its the spine, which is covered in adamantium.
Wrong!!!
Its muscles, ligaments, tendons and the spine that hold your head on your body.
Thing is, the spine does not only consist of bony vertebrae but also of cartilage and ligaments between those. It's not at all a single bone that goes down straight from your head to your butt, otherwise you couldn't move it, and if you would have read my whole argumentation, you would have known that by now.
So if someone manages to get his sword between Wolvies vertebrae, he/she could cut his head off, that's all i'm saying.

Again, here is an anatomical pic of the upper spine...

Attachment: attachment.jpeg
This has been downloaded 64 time(s).


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Old Post Mar 28th, 2006 09:58 AM
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I can see your point wannabe, i agree with kichiku beihei. Wolverine is a comic character, all the writers and pencilers that do comics at some time goin to slip up. Like in Days of Future Past, wolverine got totally vaporized by a sentinel. If it was in the real world...yes, lack of ligaments, tendons, muscles all his bones be in pieces. But, you see it as a whole complete skeleton. Dr. Doom animated his skeleton in Guardians of the Galaxy and it looks about the same as in Days of Future Past. You look at the wrist, elbow,shoulder and other joints they connected like a robot or a terminator.

Unless you have a particle beam that breaks up adamantium on a molecule level. You arent goin to cut his head off. Any blade attempted
to be used would break before damaging the adamantium laced bone.
It took the Hulks full crazy, savage, fury to pulp wolverine and break a single vertebrea.....in a what if hulk killed wolverine.

No great details are mentioned about the grafting process, even in the book.. The Science of the X-men.

Old Post Mar 28th, 2006 06:49 PM
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wannabe
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by sapphiremouse
I can see your point wannabe, i agree with kichiku beihei. Wolverine is a comic character, all the writers and pencilers that do comics at some time goin to slip up. Like in Days of Future Past, wolverine got totally vaporized by a sentinel. If it was in the real world...yes, lack of ligaments, tendons, muscles all his bones be in pieces. But, you see it as a whole complete skeleton. Dr. Doom animated his skeleton in Guardians of the Galaxy and it looks about the same as in Days of Future Past. You look at the wrist, elbow,shoulder and other joints they connected like a robot or a terminator.
Yet in AoA (originating from a point in time of the ordinary 616 where Logan already had his metal, so there is no difference between current 616's and AoA's lacing process) he lost his hand at his wrist joints to Cyclop's beam, and in ultimate he(Spidey possessing him) cut his finger between his finger and middle hand bones and in regular timeline 616 Azazel specifically ordered his servant to cut Logan's limbs at his joints where it's possible, because his adamantium laced bones themselves would be impervious to any force?!

An animated skeleton of Doom is not such a good example for a "one-bone-skeleton", especially when the forces moving it could also keep it together without ligaments etc.


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Old Post Mar 28th, 2006 11:02 PM
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im old school when it comes to comics.....the above you listed in 616 , Aoa...LOL, ive no idea what that is. You seemed to miss a point, about how artistist pencil in the characters for us to be real. In Days of Future Past you see a whole skeleton that is together. Sure Dr. Doom used technology to animate wolverines skeleton but ive seen the skeleton about 5 times and its drawn the same. No seperation in any of the joints, they are hinged together like a robot.

I remember an issue Cable was sent to hunt wolverine down. He got his hand caught in a trap. Found the trap with his hand in it....so he used his own claws to cut the hand off instead of being captured. Once again over all the years they try to hold true to a sence of realizism but eventually something slips.

Old Post Mar 29th, 2006 12:15 AM
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hhhmm....i think wolverine was in his feral, non-adamantium day. During that hunt down by Cable. It was like soo long ago. big grin

Old Post Mar 29th, 2006 12:18 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by sapphiremouse
im old school when it comes to comics.....the above you listed in 616 , Aoa...LOL, ive no idea what that is. You seemed to miss a point, about how artistist pencil in the characters for us to be real. In Days of Future Past you see a whole skeleton that is together. Sure Dr. Doom used technology to animate wolverines skeleton but ive seen the skeleton about 5 times and its drawn the same. No seperation in any of the joints, they are hinged together like a robot.

I remember an issue Cable was sent to hunt wolverine down. He got his hand caught in a trap. Found the trap with his hand in it....so he used his own claws to cut the hand off instead of being captured. Once again over all the years they try to hold true to a sence of realizism but eventually something slips.
AoA = Ages of Apocalypse timeline
616 = synonym for the current, regular timeline Marvel universe

I like it when the artists try to handle the characters in ways that respect their powers as well as logic within the boundaries of the given comic universe. This way it's still fantastic and "super" yet more believable, convincing and closer to the real world, which makes an identification easier and intensifies the reading experience - for me at least.
Of course it's also your prerogative to feel differently and i'm the last to tell you how you have to experience the comics.
smile

I meant, that the animated skeleton could be held together by some magnetic forces (just an example), induced by the animating technology. It's only logical that it is some kind of comic-science-energy-manipulation, since there is no visible mechanism that replaces muscles and ligaments in order to move it.

In Earth X (i don't know if you read this series), they took only the skull from Wolvie's Days of Future Past skeleton for resurrection purposes. What does that imply?!

My point is, that there are many examples of Wolverine surviving damage unharmed, when his limbs etc. usually should have been torn off. No one usually cares, because the majority of the readers and artists know his skeleton is unbreakable. But the majority of the readers and artists also don't know about the anatomical principles behind a skeleton, so something "slips" from time to time. Nonetheless there are some who gave those principles credit and showed the distinct possibility, that Logan's bones may be indestructible, but his skeleton as a whole is not, which is only logical and doesn't negate his status as a fictional superbeing.
For all we know Adamantium is unbendable except by extreme forces like Magneto's powers or generators that manipulate it at a subatomic level, like it's done to give Ultron(the most advanced piece of adamantium technology) his ability to move at all. Since Wolvie doesn't have such a generator or magnetic powers, the lacing process is only stated to cover his bones with the metal and there is proof, that his limbs can be seperated from his body, we can safely assume, that a decapitation is possible. And we're discussing only the possibility of a decapitation.


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Last edited by wannabe on Mar 29th, 2006 at 10:33 AM

Old Post Mar 29th, 2006 10:20 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by roughrider
With the adamantium. It made him a unique bundle of powers; he could beated, stabbed burned, thrown off high buildings etc. and could heal and survive, and come right back at his tormentor. It was an illustration of his unbreakable will.


First time poster here... Oh joy a "Quote on Quote" noob...

I showed up here and I believe you are wrong Rider.

I mainly joined beacuse of this.

I believe he had healing powers BEFORE his "Surgery". I believe that is also the only reason he survived the surgery in the first place.

Not to mention the grammer was starting to drive me insane.

Old Post Mar 30th, 2006 09:21 AM
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I like both. Bone claw has the feel of him being a true mutant, no artificial doodads. Adamantium claws on the other hand make him feel like a lethal weapon. I'd lean towards the adamantium claws a bit more but it's not a crying shame for him to have the bone claws. I just wished it was drawn a bit better since adamantium claws are just them laced and their surfaces where smoothe; Logan's bone claws were drawn like long rough stones.


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whereistony
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by wannabe
You only proved that some authors have absolutely NO IDEA of anatomy!!! yes

I had extensive anatomy lessons during my studies at university and i tell you, there is absolutely NO WAY his joint's can work if they should be covered with adamantium.
The metal may cover the bone surfaces but the tissue that connects the different bones has to be flexible, otherwise he couldn't move a single part of his body.
Why he doesn't loose any limbs (except during AoA...his left hand...and in ultimate...while Spidey was inside his body, he accidentally cut off one of his fingers...which proves MY point,btw)???
The answer is...EXAGGERATION !!!!!!!!!!!!

Btw...if we wanted to be precise, joints are not CONNECTED to the bones, they are build up by those surface parts of two or more bones that will articulate with each other, cartilage, ligaments and a fluidic substance!
Hope the picture helps you to understand! smile





Why could't a very thin bit of adamantium be both flexible and unbreakable?

Like a thin steel cable, but with the complete unbreakability of the fictional metal.

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