1) Taking punches from Juggernaut and Hulk. We run into this problem a lot on this board. Characters' power levels fluctuate quite a bit over time and from writer to writer. I would make the case that Venom laughing at a Hulk punch to the head is either a case of "Spiderman vs. Firelord," or is durability far beyond Luke Cage, and thus should not be allowed in the tournament.
2) I have provided concrete arguments as to why Big Kahuna can't dodge under these conditions. You're only response has been to contradict me without any justification other than that Venom is a badass. That is not a counter-argument. Neither Venom, Creed, nor Taskmaster has the aeronautical engineering background to make (let alone improvise) something like a Spectra. And glider possums, flying squirrels etc are so much less dense and massive than Big Kahuna it's not even funny, and cant maneuver in any case. Their wing designs would be useless to him. The best you can hope for is controlled descent.
I'm not just being thick-headed here. You gave a reasonable justification for avoiding my first ambush and I accepted it. You've yet to provide any means by which dodging is possible under these conditions.
3) The grenade. If you read what I said about the grenade initially, Ben is aiming and timing it such that even if you do attempt some sort of intercept, it'll still get you. Thanks to Sabertooth's senses, it doesn't even need to be a close hit, but it still will be. Benedict could do that with ease. Furthermore, the more I think about it, the grenade is just gravy. You cant dodge effectively mid air in anycase.
4) Distances. If you read the Marvel Directory Nightcrawler bio back on page one, they specifically list a two mile vertical jump as his limit.
2 miles = 3.2km = 10560 feet = 3200m.
5) Random bullets falling from the sky are not going to rattle my guy.He's spent more time in actual hot war than your characters' collective lifespans times 10. He also knows that subsonic projectiles wouldn't pierce his armor even if they did hit.
6) Taking blasts from my sword. Look at the picture of Vanth fighting the Red Guy. He's vaporizing two (presumably reinforced) concrete support pillars and the blast is still going. Again, if Venom's symbiote can take that, he's far, far beyond the durability limits for this tourney. What should happen when I blast you is a repeat of Wolverine's death in "Days of Future Past" (Also an example of how didging mid air with no leverage is impossible)
I put a question to our readers. We're only half way through the week. Would you like to hear more debate on these points, or have us explore different angles?
__________________
...You are Number Six. Respect Popeye
then I ask should sabretooth or wolverine not be allowed in this tournament as well?
cause they are certainly capable of the same, and it has been documented many many times as to just how durable these guys are....yet they are still considered street level opponents by practically everone on the board and it is the general concensus that spiderman would beat em (though I disagree), so then should spiderman not be allowed in this tourny? or scarlet spider?........... now seriously.... my choice of venom has proven to have a class strength of about 40 tons in recent books, he's even stated to be at the VERY LEAST twice as strong as the new and enhanced spiderman.....at least....
I took a MAJOR hit in my strength level when I entered this tourny and made extra sure that everything else for my character was okay with digi and it was.... hell, in the general tourny discussion thread there was even a page or so that delt with venom's durability... it was countered that he had other exploitable weaknesses...and it was accepted... the fact that venom's the outliner, the limit here....it was clearly stated that he was the cap on the tourny...and no one had an issue with it..... and NOW that you don't like what he's capable of doing well....it's certainly not my problem... you COULD take advantage of those other weaknesses if you were just fighting venom here...but your not... against my amalgam, I'm simply too much for you... you stated it yourself... you brought a knife to a gunfight.... that's not my fault....
venom improvises damn near everything else yet he can't figure out how to slow his descent by expanding his symbiote like a glider? or using a webbing glider? again...I'm not out on vacation gliding around for sport..I'm just slowing my descent...this technique is certainly capable of that....
dodging while in midair? who the hell said i was going to do that? I can send back your grende with webbing or avoid any blasts that head up my way by changing my velocity, (i.e. cutting the shoot, morphing the wings, making a chute........I'm certainly capable of all of this... your "concrete arguments" thus far are assuming that TBK is some blundering bafoon that doesn't understand his own body or how it works.... sorry man but that's just wack...
also I LET YOU take me into the sky... I don't think you remember how we got there in the first place... you grabbed a tendril which was created with the intent to make contact with you...I also established how sabretooth's senses to kurts BAMFS allow him to actually react faster to kurt than kurt can when coming out of a bamf... I'm not going to be beside myself in awe... and the tendril would have already started seeping into your pours, latching on to you, and crawling up towards your face...you BAMF I go with you....you do it again...same thing happens..... I LET YOU do it man...cause you gave me the ben of the doubt I was willing to let that one slide...now you're sitting there saying my character can not do what parts of him have PROVEN to be capable to do?
no i read exactly what you said...you said the grenade was timed to explode perfectly in sinc to my descent no matter what the speed was... I'm saying a glob of webbing that goes out to stop it midway is going to totally screw that plan in the butt.... it will explode way short of it's intended target... and yes i does have to be close to work... it's not exactly a hulk thunderclap now is it? cause hulk used one of those on wolvie and did little more than really really upset him...what do you think a lil flashbang is going to do to a guy with two healing factors and a symbiote for cover? ...
again...just hoping for the best i suppose...and waisting your weapons too...
okay...I don't think I was arguing this with you...
you're acting as if i'm intending to miss... I'm still aiming to kill just that i know it's not likely...so you're seriously arguing your guys just going to be standing there to take it?
I'm not dodging in midair...i thought we already covered this... IF you have time to prep your sword, it's cause I let you have it, if that's the case I'm going elsewhere..I'm not stupid enough to let myself become a sitting duck for your enjoyment... if I fall quickly how are you gonna do all this prep? and finally...
destroying wherehouse>>>>>>>>>>>>destroying two pillars...
again...not impressed....
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
I certainly think Kahuna could control his descent. What I'm saying is that the air-conditions/his-abilities couldn't support anything more elaborate than the sort of paragliding that you see from a skydiver with a rectangular chute. No sailplane-over-the-deasert type maneuvers.
Grenade or no grenade, without Kahuna's normal maneuverability he's taking a big blast on the decent. The grenade helps but is not essential to the plan. Weather you're falling fast in a straight line or gradually in a long soft arc, you may as well be a clay pigeon.
And yes, Dreadcrawler is perfectly willing and able to stand his ground under fire that he knows even better than I do is no threat to him. Effective range for most automatic pistols is around 50m. Extreme range is two to three times that, and at extreme ranges the chances of it penetrating his armor are nil. By the time you're close enough to the ground that a his is even possable, you'll be fricassee'd.
As far as your durability goes, barring Digi stepping in to clarify things we'll just have to disagree and let the voters decide. This is an energy beam, not a force bolt where you can pile up symbiote to distribute the impact and increadse the impulse time. It's more of a high-energy particle beam. Remember, that we're supposed to gauge our characters at their 'normal' power-levels, not their "Ultimate Dramatic Moment" potentials. I would contend again that someone tough enough to take a full-on hit from a upper-limit-of-what's-allowed energy attack at it's maximum power level and not at least be seriously injured is over the line.
If you want to switch gears and play that way, I could switch to powered-up Dreadstar, head-stealing Nightcrawler, and start using Benedict's world-twisting abilities. I think we's be leaving the "Powerful Street" realm at that point.
(It's my day-off today, so we can have a little back and forth between errands, if you're so inclined.)
__________________
...You are Number Six. Respect Popeye
Last edited by Laminator_X on Sep 21st, 2005 at 07:48 PM
Regaurding Ben Dreadcrawler evading your tendril attacks. Here's a picture of a Logrus Master. They're the nobility of the Courts of Chaos, the opposite number to the Princes of Amber and there's a lot more of them. Benedict led the Amberite offensive that went clear across uncounted parallel realities and defeated the Courts at their very gates. These guys can make their tendrils attack out of nowhere, even while they're sitting on an entire other plane of reality (Shadow, in Amber-jargon.) Again entire armies led by guys who have centuries of experience with these attacks. Think my guy cant handle some sneaky tendrils? Think again.
(Pic from the Amber RPG main book, page #46)
Attachment: logrus.jpg
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__________________
...You are Number Six. Respect Popeye
Here's a special treat. This is a page from the aforementioned Guns of Avalon, wherin Benedict's brother Corwyn describes his feelings as he watches Benedict ride down on him. Remember, this is the hero of the tales who fought halfway up the mountain and all that. Corwyn's probably the third of fourth best fighter among this interdimensional pantheon of ageless demigods. The weak rogue-type brother in this family, named Random, can throw a sofa one handed and fight five badassed peak-human types at once. Benedict is the best there is.
Attachment: ridetext.jpg
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__________________
...You are Number Six. Respect Popeye
Last edited by Laminator_X on Sep 21st, 2005 at 08:28 PM
One more before I step out. I just want to clear up any confusion about the timing involved.
As per the skydiving links I posted earlier, it'll take a little over a minute for a "normal" fall from that height. You could possably fall a bit faster than that without the liquifying on impact, but even 30 seconds would be more time than I need. "All this prep" isn't all that much at all. Even if we allow a 20 second drop, just for the sake of agruement, all I do is skip the grenade. The grenade's just the cherry on top anyhow.
If you try to just move away in a controlled descent, I can easily follow. Even without teleporting, I could leap through the treetops faster than your lateral velocity. On a "clear moonlit night", I could follow a black body silhouetted againse the sky with ease. And I'd get to shoot you some more thanks to the slow descent
__________________
...You are Number Six. Respect Popeye
only as precarious as I let it become... remember I can either land fast or slow however I see fit for the situation... I can glide awayif it gets too hectic... I can use webbing as a sheild in my descent as well, spiderman's used his webbing as a shield against lazers...mines stronger and more plentiful.... I can also use my energy shield for protection.... an energy shield which crossed with vibranium/admantium and held it's own.... I'll be just fine.... as soon as I hit the ground a few strand os webbing here...some symbiote tendrils there...and walla....lam has no more sword and is now tied to a tree with my tendrils going down his throat........
of course all of this assumes that I LET lam go in the first place as he grabbed my tendril which is exactly what my tendrils were trying to do in the first place... get bodily contact and make a snag......
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
makes things kinda different considering every one of my tendrils is aware of itself if they are....
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
which incidently isn't an argument i was making...
again.... I can choot or glide away from you with a certain amount of ease... also....
venom fought an entire regiment of mace warriors... these guys had sonic lazers that were leveling walls, building structures, and water towers....(by the end of the fight there was nothing but rubble in the immediate vecinity)...... venom used his symbiote to make shields that easily held back the blasts from hitting his unconcious beck.... think about that... a bunch of guys with weapons that are perfectly made to take venom down....COULDN'T DO IT.... what makes you think you can when the best feat you've got is taking out some pillars, a boulder, and making a blast roughly the size of a dorm roon?
again.....weakened venom.....walking right up to shriek's continuous wherehouse leveling scream.... and not only remaining concious.... but remaining standing without his symbiote...
compared to that you've got nothing....also...gonna be kind of hard to get past my webbing shield...or energy shield...or a combination of the two.... I'll be just fine....
when I'm that close...IF I land by you... I'll still be fine via shields o' plenty....limited time....etc...
also .... so your boy isn't worried about getting shot in the noggin?
unless his face is bullet proof I might be alittle bit worried about being hitto some extent....especially when I get in close range....
and I wouldn't have it any other way.... unfortunately for your character however these are not extremes for venom... they are examples of things he does all the time...
pyre-a radiation burning sunspot ripoff is blasting venom in the chest while venom talks to him...venom just stands there and takes it...
sunstroke- female supervillian with powers of heat comparable to her namesake places venom's head in a heat bubble....venom tendrils her head......she falls down unconcious... he does not...
spiderman with sonic gun AND human torch- spidey blasts a pissed of venom who simply leaps into the sonic fire and smashes the gun while simultaniously taking HT's fire circle and thrashing him with sand, grabbing him then slamming him into the water...THEN putting spiderman on the run.
shriek- already covered this...
arachnis project- venom shows up fights the jury (a group of mercs with armor and weapons specifically designed to kill venom), and spiderman...AND kicks their collective ass, THENgoes and fights a queen alien ripoff with acid puke in an inferno AND STILL WINS...
Mace regiment...already covered this...
venom as he is now..... caught in the middle of an explosion from a semi....simply stands in the flames with no reaction to the fire whatsoever.....
now it seems to me you are under the assumption or the impression that one or several blasts will not only hit me...but put me down for the count...given these examples....against a regular venom who fights with a tendency for brawling...... you are gonna be screwed against a fast dodging guy who can adapt to your attacks and overcome them who also has the backround and experience of negotiating foes with ranged weaponry from the weapon x project....
first you have to negate my shields and reflexes and mock spidey sense to hit me....this will be a feat in and of itself... THEN you have to do it a lot... which again.. isn't likely... THEN you have to overcome not one but two healing factors... AND you have to do all this WHILE at the same time avoid all of my attacks which are a combination of webbing, symbiote, and bullets.... AND THEN you have to do all this before I'm able to close range on you....
seems like wishful thinking to me....
well more than several of these so called street level guys can do just that...IMO that argument's kind of weak....
switch what gears? play it what way? how venom is usually portrayed? why cause you don't like it?
"i don't like it it didn't happen" right?
hey man I may as well start giving my boys the madness virus, and the healing factors ability to take nukes at ground zero and regenerate from a single blood cell..... like I said before.... these are not uncommon feats for the v-man....
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
undecided but commented on the fight....
1. Khellendros (leaning towards jinzin)
2.leonidas (was leaning towards jinzin, now is unsure)
3.8bitChris (no favor towards either)
4.long pig (leaning towards jinzin right now)
LAMINATOR X VOTES
1.zachrivard
2.DarkCrawler
3. Sentry
Damn.... good fight... I really didn't think it would be this close but you're putting up one hell of a fight Lam you just may take this thing yet... good show. This one might come down to the wire.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years! (...ok months, but you get the idea. )
You said it, Jin! Thanks, you rock as well. Let me know what colors you want on your Big Kahuna drawing. I'll make you a color rendering of it as a victory/consolation prize. (Hopefully the latter of course.)
Now let's see if I can keeep this momentum going...
__________________
...You are Number Six. Respect Popeye
Last edited by Laminator_X on Sep 21st, 2005 at 11:34 PM
gimme another night.. I'm gonna see what this "layering" thing is all about first... if I can't figure it out I'll submit to your help... thanks for the offer btw.. ...
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
KMC Community Forums
Sep 21st, 2005 01:11 PM
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"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Attachment: 
I can choot or glide away from you with a certain amount of ease... also.... 
(Hopefully the latter of course.) 
...
