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October Debate: The Mystery Surrounding Dumbledores Death
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Dr Bombay
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He's dead..face it!

JKR has said many times that once a character is dead...that character is dead. NO COMING BACK! End of story. I don't want him to be dead either, but he is. AD said himself that Harry had to face Voldemort.

Old Post Nov 11th, 2005 04:21 AM
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seanjones
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hello snape had to kill DD he made the umbreakable vow.... and that ment he had to help draco kill DD..... if snape had not done it then that would mean that the order would loose a vary important spi.... it makes sence, when harry was chasing snape... snape gave him a hint.... i dont remember what he said exactly but he was telling harry to work on his noverbal spells......... and snape also stoped harry from using an unforgiveable curse.... if he was agenst harry he would have let harry use it... harry would have went to azkaban and harry would be a sitting duck in a cell, and prisions are made to stop people from excaping not to stop people form breaking in.... so if any one has any objections pleas let me know....


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2005 07:57 PM
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Piggle Humsy
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WHAT DUMBLEDORE DIED??!!!

I knew I shouldn't have come in here....












































Just kidding! big grin


couldn't help myself.... laughing out loud


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Old Post Nov 15th, 2005 09:56 AM
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Archer
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I think snape hit him with the exspelyomis. like harry did him in POA.
it made snape fly back and up on the bed. snape was good at casting spells with out saying it.


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2005 12:48 PM
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Bumbledoor
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ok... what if dumbledoor didn't die...
instead he used a polyjuice potion on his phoenix...
the phoenix = looks like dumbledoor
snape uses killing curse on phoenix not dumbledoor (snape has completed his vow... he has killed "dumbledoor")
phoenix burned instead of dumbledoor
that is why a phoenix flies out of the fire when dumbledoor is cremated...
either this... or what if dumbledoor used the potion that makes it look like you are dead... and snape did not use the killing curse properly (remember when potter tried to use the crucio (pain one) and failed miserably...)... that way it would look to harry (and others) like he was dead after he fell...

Last edited by Bumbledoor on Nov 22nd, 2005 at 01:49 PM

Old Post Nov 22nd, 2005 01:47 PM
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Makae
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Nah, Dumbledore is dead. Not as dead as Black, but still dead. And I'm not sure if Snape really bad or not. I'm leaning toward him being evil, but what he said in the very beginning of the book makes me wonder. Because he said that he didn't kill Harry in the beginning because he wanted to see if Harry could be the new dark lord. But that doesn't make any sense because Snape just hated Harry's father so much that I can't see him wanting to follow his son for any reason.

Old Post Nov 22nd, 2005 06:44 PM
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spidey-carnage
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Makae
Nah, Dumbledore is dead. Not as dead as Black, but still dead. And I'm not sure if Snape really bad or not. I'm leaning toward him being evil, but what he said in the very beginning of the book makes me wonder. Because he said that he didn't kill Harry in the beginning because he wanted to see if Harry could be the new dark lord. But that doesn't make any sense because Snape just hated Harry's father so much that I can't see him wanting to follow his son for any reason.

"Tis true, gotoDumbledoreisnotdead.com
i also agree on the snape being evil thingy, but Dumbledore is alive, read the site, i also agree on the harry-dark lord thing [SPOILER - highlight to read]: the little Half-Blood Prince so n' so mad


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Old Post Nov 22nd, 2005 06:58 PM
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seanjones
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i dont think snape is evil,,, i think DD new what had to be done.. DD is dead. sadly he is... but i think snape is not evil he stoped harry from usin the unforgivalbe curse... using the curse would give u a one way ticket to askaban... and if snape was evil dont you think he would have captured Harry,,, since harry was practically at snapes mercy,, and take him to the dark lord.... not only that but snape also gave harry a vital clue.... he almost said it out load.... he told harry not to anounce his attackes.... another words to use nonverbal spells... thats the only way harry will succeed in defeating the dark lord... just thik about what i have said if any one dissagrees or has some input please send my a private message and let me know..


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Old Post Nov 22nd, 2005 08:07 PM
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Makae
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That's another good point. Snape could have done so much to Harry at that end bit there, but he seemed to be trying to teach him instead... very fishy. And Dumbledore had to die. Harry has to face Voldermort alone. It just had to happen that way. Sad, but true.

Old Post Nov 23rd, 2005 04:43 AM
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seanjones
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thank you


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Old Post Nov 24th, 2005 09:57 PM
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Makae
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Just giving credit where credit is due.

Old Post Nov 25th, 2005 12:45 AM
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Shana FlameHaze
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After reading what the lot of you have said it has made me wonder myself what the truth is, because they said that in order to kill someone with the avada kedavra curse you were supposed to mean it, and if sanpe didn't want to do it he couldn't mean it, so the spell could not have worked maybe sent Dumbledore into a coma. But then there is other things that you guys have said that just...


YOU CONFUSE ME PEOPLE !!!!! stick out tongue


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Old Post Nov 25th, 2005 04:36 AM
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Makae
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They never said that you had to mean it for Avada Kedavra to work. They only said it for the torture curse. Plus, Snape made a magical vow, and there is no fooling magic.

Old Post Nov 25th, 2005 05:08 AM
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RoguePw25
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I went to that site and they make some very good points. Like, why didn't Fawkes try to heal Dumbledore? He did it for Harry when in Book 2 I think.

With everything going on, it would make sense for Dumbledore to be in hiding. Like him faking his death so that he can try and get to Voldey anomyously or something.


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Old Post Nov 25th, 2005 07:34 AM
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its_magic
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Makae
They never said that you had to mean it for Avada Kedavra to work. They only said it for the torture curse. Plus, Snape made a magical vow, and there is no fooling magic.


yeah he made a vow to help draco not kill DD i dont think he is dead the killing curse does not send ppl flying through the air and this year at hogwarts they were teaching the students non verbal spells so i reckon snape was saying one thing but doing another i dont know thats what i think i got a really big theory but i will save it for another time i want to hear more ideas to see if ppl r thinking along the same lines as me my mum reckons that harry is a horcruxes his scar anyway


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Old Post Nov 25th, 2005 10:19 AM
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Makae
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The beginning of his vow was to help Draco. The last part of the vow way to do the job himself if it looked like Draco couldn't. And the disarming curse doesn't usually send people flying either, but it did in PoA. Dumbledore probably went flying because Snape was emotional when he cast the cusre.

Old Post Nov 25th, 2005 03:12 PM
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Nai
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Nice how many theories are posted here. Let me just add my personal theory.

First we have to take a look at the unbreakable vow. What did Snape swear ?

a) Watch over Malfoy when he's trying to carry out Voldemorts plans.
b) Protect Malfoy against all kinds of dangers / threats.
c) Kill DD himself if Draco is about to fail.

Now we know that breaking the unbreakable vow will result in the death of the person that is under it's influence meaning if Snape acts against one of the points he will die.
Now let's just think about the points b and c. The only real danger or threat to Draco is Voldemort himself and the only protection against this threat is Dumbledore. Now killing Dumbledore might result in breaking the second unbreakable vow but as we have seen Snape was still alive after doing that.
And the third unbreakable vow ? Where was Draco about to fail ? He had Dumbledore disarmed and there were 4 Death-eaters in the room for backup then you have Snape coming in and immediatly cursing Dumbledore without even waiting for Draco doing something.

But let's go back to the actual scene and have a look at it.
We have Harry and Dumbledore arriving with the magic brooms. Then DD freezes Harry and get's disarmed before talking to Draco but think about it.

- in OotP Dumbledore alone took out Fudge, Percy Weasley, Kingsley, Umbridge and Dawlish at once and he mentioned that he would easily be able to escape from Askaban. Draco would have had no chance to disarm him if Dumbledore didn't want to get disarmed.
- the hint that he will be able to escape from Askaban as well as the scene when he saves Harry in PoA have shown that Dumbledore is able to use spells without having his wand at hand (wandless magic). It's hinted again in the scene when Dumbledore tells Draco that now everything is up to his mercy.

And now think about the possibilities Dumbledore had in the scene even when the Deatheaters arrived. He had the two magic brooms up there that he could have used to escape from the tower. He had Harry hidden under his magic cape and I'm pretty sure that Harry could have taken out all the people in the room from his hidden position if Dumbledore lowered his spell. And we know that Dumbledore is able to lower Hogwarts protections to give people the ability to use Apparition within the school building meaing he could have used Disapparition to get away from the tower.

But he didn't do anything like that but instead waited for Snape coming. And DD didn't beg for mercy and he didn't beg for getting killed by Snape. Why should he ? If Snape had shown mercy then he wouldn't be able to spy on Voldemort and the Deatheaters any longer and as we have seen all the Deatheaters wanted Dumbledore dead.
The only thing that he could have begged for was that Snape should have continued his spy works for the Order of the Phoenix.

My personal theory:
I think Snape told Dumbledore about everything Malfoy was doing and he told Dumbledore about the unbreakable vow. Dumbledore knew that Malfoy won't be able to kill him and he knew that Snape will come which he utilized to fake his own death.

Now point one: The Avada Kedavra
Bellatrix Lestrange's own words in OotP:
"Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy? You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really cause pain--to enjoy it-- righteous anger won't hurt me for long..."

That means that Snape must have wanted to kill Dumbledore and he must have enjoyed killing him. We know that Snape started spying on Voldemort before Voldemort's fall and his hand twitched before giving the third unbreakable vow. I don't think he would hesitated a second if he enjoyed the idea having to kill Dumbledore or if he really wanted to do it.
Therefore we can say that the Avada Kedavra Snape used against Dumbledore didn't kill Dumbledore.

Next observation: Dumbledore flying backwards being hit by the curse and it seems like he was "standing in the air" before he actually fell down from the tower.

I think Snape used some nonverbal spell to get Dumbledore out of sight either a banishing charm (Flitwick was thrown across the room when Neville accidentially used it on him in GoF) or the Levitation charm just to cover that he didn't really kill Dumbledore.

Next observation: Dumbledore bleeding when he's found at the side of the tower.

As it was already pointed out: Dead people don't bleed. That means Dumbledore was still alive when he was lying there although he was injured by the fall. And here we have a perfect recycling of the scene when Harry fell down from his broomstick during the Quidditch-match against Hufflepuff in PoA. Dumbledore used wandless spell casting to stop Harry from falling down and although he managed to slower down Harry's fall, Harry was still injured through it. I think the same thing was happening here...Dumbledore slowed down his own fall but still the impact did hurt him enough to bleed and maybe break some bones - then Fawkes moved in and cried to heal him.

Next observations all from the funeral scene:
- we never see Dumbledore's body
- Harry sees a Phoenix flying away

I think Dumbledore used the flames as a cover up and then Fawkes carried him away. We have seen in OotP that Fawkes can simply disappear from Dumbledore's office although Hogwarts has anti-Appartion magic installed and Fawkes wasn't present at the funeral which seemed very odd to me since all creatures did show their respect for Dumbledore but Fawkes was missing.

Conclusion: I think Dumbledore faked his death to make Voldemort reveal himself and provoke Voldemort to make mistakes. The entire search for the Horcrux was senseless and I bet that Dumbledore knew there was no real Horcrux in that cave (R.A.B who removed / destroyed the Horcrux seems to be Sirius brother Regulus Black) and just wanted to show Harry what awaits him when trying to find the other Horcruxs. I don't think that Jo Rowling would kill Dumbledore in such a useless way (having himself weakened through the search for a Horcrux which wasn't even at the place, having Draco disarm him and then Snape killing him).


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Old Post Nov 26th, 2005 12:28 PM
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mentalguy
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Miffed dang i was thinking the same too

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Borbarad
Nice how many theories are posted here. Let me just add my personal theory.

First we have to take a look at the unbreakable vow. What did Snape swear ?

a) Watch over Malfoy when he's trying to carry out Voldemorts plans.
b) Protect Malfoy against all kinds of dangers / threats.
c) Kill DD himself if Draco is about to fail.

Now we know that breaking the unbreakable vow will result in the death of the person that is under it's influence meaning if Snape acts against one of the points he will die.
Now let's just think about the points b and c. The only real danger or threat to Draco is Voldemort himself and the only protection against this threat is Dumbledore. Now killing Dumbledore might result in breaking the second unbreakable vow but as we have seen Snape was still alive after doing that.
And the third unbreakable vow ? Where was Draco about to fail ? He had Dumbledore disarmed and there were 4 Death-eaters in the room for backup then you have Snape coming in and immediatly cursing Dumbledore without even waiting for Draco doing something.

But let's go back to the actual scene and have a look at it.
We have Harry and Dumbledore arriving with the magic brooms. Then DD freezes Harry and get's disarmed before talking to Draco but think about it.

- in OotP Dumbledore alone took out Fudge, Percy Weasley, Kingsley, Umbridge and Dawlish at once and he mentioned that he would easily be able to escape from Askaban. Draco would have had no chance to disarm him if Dumbledore didn't want to get disarmed.
- the hint that he will be able to escape from Askaban as well as the scene when he saves Harry in PoA have shown that Dumbledore is able to use spells without having his wand at hand (wandless magic). It's hinted again in the scene when Dumbledore tells Draco that now everything is up to his mercy.

And now think about the possibilities Dumbledore had in the scene even when the Deatheaters arrived. He had the two magic brooms up there that he could have used to escape from the tower. He had Harry hidden under his magic cape and I'm pretty sure that Harry could have taken out all the people in the room from his hidden position if Dumbledore lowered his spell. And we know that Dumbledore is able to lower Hogwarts protections to give people the ability to use Apparition within the school building meaing he could have used Disapparition to get away from the tower.

But he didn't do anything like that but instead waited for Snape coming. And DD didn't beg for mercy and he didn't beg for getting killed by Snape. Why should he ? If Snape had shown mercy then he wouldn't be able to spy on Voldemort and the Deatheaters any longer and as we have seen all the Deatheaters wanted Dumbledore dead.
The only thing that he could have begged for was that Snape should have continued his spy works for the Order of the Phoenix.

My personal theory:
I think Snape told Dumbledore about everything Malfoy was doing and he told Dumbledore about the unbreakable vow. Dumbledore knew that Malfoy won't be able to kill him and he knew that Snape will come which he utilized to fake his own death.

Now point one: The Avada Kedavra
Bellatrix Lestrange's own words in OotP:
"Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy? You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really cause pain--to enjoy it-- righteous anger won't hurt me for long..."

That means that Snape must have wanted to kill Dumbledore and he must have enjoyed killing him. We know that Snape started spying on Voldemort before Voldemort's fall and his hand twitched before giving the third unbreakable vow. I don't think he would hesitated a second if he enjoyed the idea having to kill Dumbledore or if he really wanted to do it.
Therefore we can say that the Avada Kedavra Snape used against Dumbledore didn't kill Dumbledore.

Next observation: Dumbledore flying backwards being hit by the curse and it seems like he was "standing in the air" before he actually fell down from the tower.

I think Snape used some nonverbal spell to get Dumbledore out of sight either a banishing charm (Flitwick was thrown across the room when Neville accidentially used it on him in GoF) or the Levitation charm just to cover that he didn't really kill Dumbledore.

Next observation: Dumbledore bleeding when he's found at the side of the tower.

As it was already pointed out: Dead people don't bleed. That means Dumbledore was still alive when he was lying there although he was injured by the fall. And here we have a perfect recycling of the scene when Harry fell down from his broomstick during the Quidditch-match against Hufflepuff in PoA. Dumbledore used wandless spell casting to stop Harry from falling down and although he managed to slower down Harry's fall, Harry was still injured through it. I think the same thing was happening here...Dumbledore slowed down his own fall but still the impact did hurt him enough to bleed and maybe break some bones - then Fawkes moved in and cried to heal him.

Next observations all from the funeral scene:
- we never see Dumbledore's body
- Harry sees a Phoenix flying away

I think Dumbledore used the flames as a cover up and then Fawkes carried him away. We have seen in OotP that Fawkes can simply disappear from Dumbledore's office although Hogwarts has anti-Appartion magic installed and Fawkes wasn't present at the funeral which seemed very odd to me since all creatures did show their respect for Dumbledore but Fawkes was missing.

Conclusion: I think Dumbledore faked his death to make Voldemort reveal himself and provoke Voldemort to make mistakes. The entire search for the Horcrux was senseless and I bet that Dumbledore knew there was no real Horcrux in that cave (R.A.B who removed / destroyed the Horcrux seems to be Sirius brother Regulus Black) and just wanted to show Harry what awaits him when trying to find the other Horcruxs. I don't think that Jo Rowling would kill Dumbledore in such a useless way (having himself weakened through the search for a Horcrux which wasn't even at the place, having Draco disarm him and then Snape killing him).


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Old Post Nov 27th, 2005 11:45 AM
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tike900
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question who was r.a.b.

Old Post Nov 27th, 2005 06:07 PM
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seanjones
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Makae
They never said that you had to mean it for Avada Kedavra to work. They only said it for the torture curse. Plus, Snape made a magical vow, and there is no fooling magic.


he may have not fooled it but only delayed it..


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Old Post Nov 28th, 2005 07:37 PM
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