"As a former "the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it" kind of guy, I am sympathetic with any Christian who accepts the Bible at face value. But here's the catch. Leviticus is filled with laws imposing the death penalty for everything from eating catfish to sassing your parents. If you accept one as the absolute, unequivocal word of God, you must accept them all."
By Oliver "Buzz" Thomas
Mon Nov 20, 6:40 AM ET
What if Christian leaders are wrong about homosexuality? I suppose, much as a newspaper maintains its credibility by setting the record straight, church leaders would need to do the same:
Correction: Despite what you might have read, heard or been taught throughout your churchgoing life, homosexuality is, in fact, determined at birth and is not to be condemned by God's followers.
Based on a few recent headlines, we won't be seeing that admission anytime soon. Last week, U.S. Roman Catholic bishops took the position that homosexual attractions are "disordered" and that gays should live closeted lives of chastity. At the same time, North Carolina's Baptist State Convention was preparing to investigate churches that are too gay-friendly. Even the more liberal Presbyterian Church (USA) had been planning to put a minister on trial for conducting a marriage ceremony for two women before the charges were dismissed on a technicality. All this brings me back to the question: What if we're wrong?
Religion's only real commodity, after all, is its moral authority. Lose that, and we lose our credibility. Lose credibility, and we might as well close up shop.
It's happened to Christianity before, most famously when we dug in our heels over Galileo's challenge to the biblical view that the Earth, rather than the sun, was at the center of our solar system. You know the story. Galileo was persecuted for what turned out to be incontrovertibly true. For many, especially in the scientific community, Christianity never recovered.
This time, Christianity is in danger of squandering its moral authority by continuing its pattern of discrimination against gays and lesbians in the face of mounting scientific evidence that sexual orientation has little or nothing to do with choice. To the contrary, whether sexual orientation arises as a result of the mother's hormones or the child's brain structure or DNA, it is almost certainly an accident of birth. The point is this: Without choice, there can be no moral culpability.
Answer in Scriptures
So, why are so many church leaders (not to mention Orthodox Jewish and Muslim leaders) persisting in their view that homosexuality is wrong despite a growing stream of scientific evidence that is likely to become a torrent in the coming years? The answer is found in Leviticus 18. "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination."
As a former "the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it" kind of guy, I am sympathetic with any Christian who accepts the Bible at face value. But here's the catch. Leviticus is filled with laws imposing the death penalty for everything from eating catfish to sassing your parents. If you accept one as the absolute, unequivocal word of God, you must accept them all.
For many of gay America's loudest critics, the results are unthinkable. First, no more football. At least not without gloves. Handling a pig skin is an abomination. Second, no more Saturday games even if you can get a new ball. Violating the Sabbath is a capital offense according to Leviticus. For the over-40 crowd, approaching the altar of God with a defect in your sight is taboo, but you'll have plenty of company because those menstruating or with disabilities are also barred.
The truth is that mainstream religion has moved beyond animal sacrifice, slavery and the host of primitive rituals described in Leviticus centuries ago. Selectively hanging onto these ancient proscriptions for gays and lesbians exclusively is unfair according to anybody's standard of ethics. We lawyers call it "selective enforcement," and in civil affairs it's illegal.
A better reading of Scripture starts with the book of Genesis and the grand pronouncement about the world God created and all those who dwelled in it. "And, the Lord saw that it was good." If God created us and if everything he created is good, how can a gay person be guilty of being anything more than what God created him or her to be?
Turning to the New Testament, the writings of the Apostle Paul at first lend credence to the notion that homosexuality is a sin, until you consider that Paul most likely is referring to the Roman practice of pederasty, a form of pedophilia common in the ancient world. Successful older men often took boys into their homes as concubines, lovers or sexual slaves. Today, such sexual exploitation of minors is no longer tolerated. The point is that the sort of long-term, committed, same-sex relationships that are being debated today are not addressed in the New Testament. It distorts the biblical witness to apply verses written in one historical context (i.e. sexual exploitation of children) to contemporary situations between two monogamous partners of the same sex. Sexual promiscuity is condemned by the Bible whether it's between gays or straights. Sexual fidelity is not.
What would Jesus do?
For those who have lingering doubts, dust off your Bibles and take a few hours to reacquaint yourself with the teachings of Jesus. You won't find a single reference to homosexuality. There are teachings on money, lust, revenge, divorce, fasting and a thousand other subjects, but there is nothing on homosexuality. Strange, don't you think, if being gay were such a moral threat?
On the other hand, Jesus spent a lot of time talking about how we should treat others. First, he made clear it is not our role to judge. It is God's. ("Judge not lest you be judged." Matthew 7:1) And, second, he commanded us to love other people as we love ourselves.
So, I ask you. Would you want to be discriminated against? Would you want to lose your job, housing or benefits because of something over which you had no control? Better yet, would you like it if society told you that you couldn't visit your lifelong partner in the hospital or file a claim on his behalf if he were murdered?
The suffering that gay and lesbian people have endured at the hands of religion is incalculable, but they can look expectantly to the future for vindication. Scientific facts, after all, are a stubborn thing. Even our religious beliefs must finally yield to them as the church in its battle with Galileo ultimately realized. But for religion, the future might be ominous. Watching the growing conflict between medical science and religion over homosexuality is like watching a train wreck from a distance. You can see it coming for miles and sense the inevitable conclusion, but you're powerless to stop it. The more church leaders dig in their heels, the worse it's likely to be.
Oliver "Buzz" Thomas is a Baptist minister and author of an upcoming book, 10 Things Your Minister Wants to Tell You (But Can't Because He Needs the Job).
__________________ "If I were you"
"If you were me, you'd know the safest place to hide...is in sanity!
Last edited by Devil King on Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:44 PM
It is true that as science advances, religion loses its power, or better yet is forced to evolve with science and lose the meaning it once had before.
The Bible went from once being taken literally, to now being taken subjectively. Every Christian has a different take on the Bible, because they choose to select those passages from the Bible that best fit in with thier own personal morality, and ignore or pay less attention to the quotes that are not convienent for them to follow.
Captain Fantastic's post about how the Bible indirectly forbids football proves it.
All the ways you wish you could be, that's me. I look like you wanna look, I **** like you wanna ****, I am smart, capable, and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not.
All the ways you wish you could be, that's me. I look like you wanna look, I **** like you wanna ****, I am smart, capable, and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not.
This guy is an idiot and also not a very good reader of the Bible. Death for eating shellfish? That is definitely not what Leviticus says. It says they are unclean, but the punishment is definitely not death. This destroys his credibility when it comes to the Bible. Add to that the fact that Jesus declared all food clean in his fulfillment of the Law and presto, the guy is an idiot. Death for not keeping the Sabbath? Can't find a verse saying that.
God created the world and it was good- yes, but that was before sin was in the world. This changed so much that he destroyed it via the flood.
Homosexuality is not decided by birth and no scientific evidence shows that. Genetics, hormone patterns, etc. I fully believe can make one more likely to become homosexual, but this is not decided at birth.
Actually, the early church condemned the literal reading of the Bible.
Augustine of Hippo said "I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation."
He was steadfastly against literal reading because as he says,
"it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation."
I tend to agree with him.
I like how the guy works so very hard at creating a straw man but it gets tossed in the garbage heap by anyone with an ounce of biblical knowledge.
It's not even a good straw man. It'd be better if he were talking about people who were yelling about burning gays.
Christ Almighty, Capt--how many times must I go over this?
1. If you had been paying any attention at all to my more recent postings in this thread, I no longer think that engaging in a homosexual relationship is, in fact, sinful. This opinion was heavily influenced by an in-depth study (not on my part) of the "anti-gay" text, the literal translations, and the culture of the time.
2. If you have paid attention to any of my posts rather than dismissing them as gay-bashing ramblings from a Christian fundamentalist, you would realize that, even if homosexuality were a sin, I have never once subscribed to the belief that gays living the homosexual lifestyle were condemned.
3. If sin itself is cause enough for one not to be "caught up," then there will be very few Christians who escape the Tribulation.
I was, of course, referring to the general populace.
__________________ Ask me about my "obvious and unpleasant agenda of hatred."
Last edited by Zeal Ex Nihilo on Nov 23rd, 2006 at 05:24 AM
one thing i do know is that you cant take everything the bible says literally.
__________________
All the ways you wish you could be, that's me. I look like you wanna look, I **** like you wanna ****, I am smart, capable, and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not.
Would that "ounce of biblical knowledge" be supported by your belief that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality? And if it's a strawman argument, then please provide the REAL argument against homosexuality for the rest of us. Cite where Jesus Christ(of Christianity fame) condemned homosexuals.
Ah, but I'm not dismissive. I know how you feel. Which is why I question why you allow other christians on this site to bash and condemn homosexuals without standing up for your own perspective on their stance.
If you think that other christians can make the final cut, then why can't non-christians? But beyond that, the cherry-picking of what is acceptable and what is not is where teh hypocritical aspect of my accusation comes into play. Perhaps you would like to debate homosexuality in regards to christianity with Nellinator?
But of course you were.
__________________ "If I were you"
"If you were me, you'd know the safest place to hide...is in sanity!
All the ways you wish you could be, that's me. I look like you wanna look, I **** like you wanna ****, I am smart, capable, and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not.
I try not to use Bible quotes when I know they will not help, but since you asked...
"Anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be detestable to you." Leviticus 11:12
Punishment/ritual for breaking this law:
"He must wash his clothes, and he will unclean till evening." Leviticus 11:40
Death for eating shellfish? Only a person completely ignorant of the topic would say that.
Fine, I address it all at once. From the mouth of Jesus:
"Listen and understand. What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'" Matthew 15:10-11
"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are the things that make a man 'unclean'..." Matthew 15:17-20
Jesus apparently removes the laws concerning unlean and clean foods and creatures. This also addresses the manner of pigskins as well. Add to that the fact that footballs are mostly synthetic nowadays and that portion of your argument is dead. Jesus also addresses the issue of sexual immorality in this statement. Jesus never removes the laws concerning sexual immorality, so they are still in place to this day. Another thing that shows Jesus did not support homosexuality when he discusses marriage in Matthew 19. He talks about men uniting with their wife and the two becoming one flesh. When he talks about divorce it is always between a man and a women. Jesus never specifically condemns the act of homosexuality, but I believe that his attitudes towards sexual immorality and marriage show his confirmation of OT law on sexual immorality.
If you what I actually believe about homosexuality, perhaps you would better understand. The Bible only condemns the acts of homosexuality, not being one. In fact, while reading Matthew 19 for the above I had the thought that Jesus addresses homosexuality in verse 12.
"...and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
You just misinterpret the story in the bible. It is not hated the gay people itself but its gay prostitution not the loving relationship but its unloving and lustful ways...the main teachings of Jesus is to LOVE all people as we love ourselves...He did not condemn magdalene(who commits adultery) but show his love to her...Jesus never discriminate people regardless of who we are and what we are.....you all guys trumple the basic faith of Jesus teaching--that is LOVE.
"All the townsmen of Sodom, both young and old - all people to the last man - closed in on the house. They called to Lot and said to him. 'Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intimacies with them.' Lot said. 'I beg you, my brothers, not to do this wicked thing. I have two daughters who have never had intercourse with men. Let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you please.'" - Genesis 19:4-9
All the ways you wish you could be, that's me. I look like you wanna look, I **** like you wanna ****, I am smart, capable, and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not.
Some people think you get the death penalty for it according to the OT. This is because they are illiterate and don't understand what Jesus said about all food being clean.
You are associating (actually you are confused with) what the Bible records with what the Bible teaches. God (through the various writers of the different books that together constitute the Bible) simply provides us with an account of what transpired. God (or God through the Bible) does not endorse or condone what Lot suggested. Do you follow me?
KMC Community Forums
Nov 22nd, 2006 09:39 PM
That is definitely not what Leviticus says. It says they are unclean, but the punishment is definitely not death. This destroys his credibility when it comes to the Bible. Add to that the fact that Jesus declared all food clean in his fulfillment of the Law and presto, the guy is an idiot. Death for not keeping the Sabbath? Can't find a verse saying that.
