Metaphorical just as weeping and gnashing of teeth. The fires are to torment of agony here and now.
Not said by Jesus.
Again metaphorical. Believe in the eternal truths of Jesus and be one with god. As for returning again, so are we all waiting for Mithra. Remember the RC church screwed with his words.
I threw that in for your benifit. It was an OT teaching, one that didn't include the 2nd return of Jesus, hell, torment or the teaching of Paul.
Hope you're not referring to me as ingornant. I've been studying the Bible for many more years than you probably along with many other denominations take on it.
Truly a person shouldn't use Paul, People compare the OT, Jesus and see the discretions Even the Jews will, as I have said see Jesus as a teacher, but Paul is from another teaching all together and has never been accepted.
Last edited by debbiejo on Nov 27th, 2006 at 12:36 PM
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matthew 10:28
* Christ said that we should fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell... it's very obvious that the hell stated by Jesus is NOT metaphorical...
* so? is Saint Paul the only one to preach about eternal life?
"Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 25:45-46
* Christ obviously preached "eternal life" far before Saint Paul did...
* not metaphorical... it seems as though the term "metaphorical" serves as your excuse whenever there is something you cannot refute, my friend...
"For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done."
Matthew 16:27
* Christ Himself preached that He will come back... the proof of heaven is where Christ went when He ascended and from where He will appear from...
"For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me;"
John 6:38
* Christ said He came down from heaven...
"In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."
John 14:2-3
* heaven is where Christ came from and heaven is where Christ will appear from...
* so you accept the Old Testament but reject the New? you studied the Bible, and you know that the Jews who killed Jesus also accepts only the Old and rejects the New... how about it?
* i am not referring anyone of anything... it is Bible who said that, not me... have you been hit by the Scriptures?
* i believe what Saint Peter said about Saint Paul and his epistles... there are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures...
Yes being a homosexual is a sin. I have no idea how anyone could blatantly disregard such obvious testimony against it in the bible.
Borrowed from peejayd -
"Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
I Corinthians 6:9-10
Homosexuals are fornicators - as are heterosexuals who engage in sexual sin. Whether they commit the sin action or not. Remember sin begins in the heart - and is not just limited to one's actions. Without assigning a sin value to either, homosexuality is still the more perverse sin, because it goes against the nature of sex - as it was created by God - to be between a male and female.
Regardless - God equates all sexual sin with other sins such as lying, stealing, drunkeness - and all other sinful behaviours. So since no sin is worse than another one in God's eyes - all can be forgiven - as long as one earnestely attempts to repent of their sins. Once the motivation is demonstrated within the heart - God allows the Holy Spirit to indwell the sinner, and take the motivation of sinning away from them. It can be a gradual or instant process - depending upon an individuals responsiveness to/faith in the Holy Sprit that now exists within them.
__________________
Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom.
"Sin" is basically "unloving" behaviour. It's your choice - to accept or to not accept what you believe "loving" behaviour represents. I fail to see as to how lying to oneself and others, coveting, or any type of fornication can be considered loving(even though I've been guilty of all of these things myself).
Despite being the sinners that we are though - if we so desire to - we can repent of our sinful behaviours - and God can truly change us from within. But making the initial choice involving one wanting to change - and involving one wanting to know the truth - is strictly up to oneself, however I must say that in my limited experiences with God - for every little bit I've given him - he's always given me back much more in return.
__________________
Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom.
Being a homosexual means having an attraction to the same sex rather than the opposite sex. This is not morally wrong even with the traditional evangelical (or even fundamentalist) viewpoint. I will, however, assume that you are talking about the homosexual lifestyle (something I generally make sure to clarify in my posts).
Me either, until I learned more about the Bible rather than just the words that fill the pages.
The only thing believed to be referring to homosexuality in that verse is the word "effeminate," which, quite frankly, is a bad translation. The original word is closer to "soft" or "malleable," and people aren't really sure what it means. Some suggest that it might mean cowardly.
If by all those words you mean, "Heathen **** accept Christ to become straight," then, no, it doesn't work like that.
You see, this is a problem that many people have with understanding homosexuality. They think it's all about the ass sex (or cunningulus). However, homosexuality is not just wanting to have sex with people of the same sex, it is the ability--please refrain from nitpicking at my phrasing of that--to have an emotional-sexual relationship with members of the same sex that is normally applied only to members of the opposite sex.
__________________ Ask me about my "obvious and unpleasant agenda of hatred."
Yet logically people are going to get into heaven, and you believe people are going to get into heaven - so are the people getting into heaven no better then the people being left out of heaven? If so it seems even lest just. "The people I let into heaven are not better then the people left out, but they worship me, so in the spirit of cronyism they get in."
So it is basically "Bah! I'm so much better then you all, older and more powerful, so I don't have to answer you! That's my answer, so stick that in yah pipe yah nonbelievers." Because that is basically it - a non-answer. God is saying we have no right to question him (which is bad parenting) rather then explaining the reasoning behind it (which would be good parenting.)
Once again I wonder the reason for making us in his image. It clearly doesn't mean he has to respect us or try and treat us as equal... it seems the only thing it does is make us capable of worshipping him.
Only it is more like:
Christian: " God said ask and you shall receive!"
Atheist: "Ummm... I have never seen any evidence of a God. How can I truly ask something I don't believe? Surely your "God" wouldn't be accepting of people asking just to cover their bases?"
Muslim: "Your faith has never spoken to me, I have only found truth and peace in Islam... how can I believe in something that feels dead and cold to me compared to my current faith?"
Christians: "Fools! You question God? Where were you when he created the universe?"
Atheist & Muslim: "Ummm... that isn't an answer. That is just telling us not to ask questions..."
So... that doesn't really make it any different - it is essentially "it doesn't matter what you do with your life, as long as at some point before your death you join my club you're in. And it doesn't matter how you have lived your life, if you don't join my club you are booked for an eternity of suffering."
I mean it is summery. And it isn't a system that works on little old simple earth, it don't see the rational or justice with it working on a divine scale (but of course God can do anything, and not having been there at creation I loose my right to ask God any question, other then let me in your club house.)
As always - no proof homosexuality is a choice. As always - homosexual relationships are not fundamentally different from heterosexual relationships when it comes to emotions like love. That is - two man can posses the same emotions as a man and a women. That is two men can be just as much in love as a man and a women. Homosexuality... IS NOT unloving behaviour!
Testimony that would stand up in court? No.
Testimony that is so clear cut that all Christians agree? No.
Testimony that can even be confirmed as having happened (Sodom's destruction by supernatural means)? No.
Sadly, once again, you do not have a monopoly on the truth when Christians themselves can't agree on it.
So... God really is concerned with people having sex... why is that? Your God who doesn't care for the emotions of his people, their love for one another - be it heterosexual love or homosexual love hardly is worth worshipping is he? He sounds quite unpleasant. At least their are open minded Christians out their who see beyond such bias.
Once again - no proof it is a choice. No proof praying hard and wishing stops one being homosexual. Because as FeceMan pointed out, homosexuality is not having homosexual sex, since their is no such thing. Sex between two men - yes. A sexual act that is purely homosexual - no (since heterosexuals do similar things.) Just because a homosexual doesn't have sex doesn't stop them being homosexual.
__________________
From even the greatest of horrors irony is seldom absent.
I could say the same. You can kill me but not my spirit because I am a strong person and will not succumb to you.*
Yes fear a person that cannot only kill you physical body but your spirit as well......yes, ......That is why people commit suicide. It's because they can destroy your spirit or breaks your spirit.
Why didn't anyone like Moses??...Why not him? He should have shouldn't he? He received the law, and yet never said what the consequences were if they were broken.
Cause and Effect. The Son of man has come to tell you some truths,..just as others have.
To teach us some truths as he did in his parables...Jesus always spoke in word pictures to make a point.
Yes, We all can be in this state of becoming one with this universal/Spirit/Goodness to others and think above ourselves.... as Jesus taught...and if you follow him then you can be there also.
Well the OT is much more authentic and consistent with what Jesus taught, than Paul, and if you looked at Tarsus, which Paul was from then you'd see that it was very strong in Mithra ism. In fact it was like a beginning hub (excuse me for saying hub...airline slany).......lol...If you study the whole Bible from front to back and make categories on what was taught by different authors, you'd see the discrepancies and where the false teaching came in....and the church at that time DID CAPITALIZE ON IT.........Why wouldn't a huge power NOT? The Roman system wasn't working, so why not speak in the name of god TO CONTROL the people...........Hmm.....I'd do it if I was of that demeanor...and needed to control kings and countries with MY WORD FROM GOD.
Thank you, though sometimes I feel that you feel I am not knowing my studies.......but ok then...Yet, study each book from the OT and compare it with the NT, and you will see for yourself that Paul is a new religion combining Mithra with Jewish theology and called it something new.
Well for one I am NOT ignorant of the scriptures at all, sorry to mislead you my friend, I am only trying to show you what you may not have not studied in all completeness....
They are not good, but their sins are forgiven. Thus, they have been made worthy of the glory of God.
I think it's more of a "You could not even begin to fathom my reasoning, and, even if I did explain it to you, you could not understand it, so you'll have to trust me."
That would be a lazy Christian.
You might see it as the same, but that is an oversimplification of the entire thing.
You are allowed to ask God questions, you just aren't allowed to be a douche about it. God might answer the questiosn and He might not.
__________________ Ask me about my "obvious and unpleasant agenda of hatred."
So you think that being gay is not a sin, but acting on it is?
Just make a basic, clarifying statement for me. I'd love to know how you feel, straight up. No pun intended. BEING gay is alright, but acting on being gay is what?
__________________ "If I were you"
"If you were me, you'd know the safest place to hide...is in sanity!
I understood what you meant - as well as the meanings of the words posted. But remember, the act of sinning, begins within the heart. If one has deep thoughts and/or fantasizes about fornication, whether it be with a male, or wheter it be with a female, they have already commited the sin of fornication. This is the case with all sins.
The human sex drive is designed to be a natural desire - between a *married* male and female. It assists in the natural process of procreation, as it was created by God. Needless to say - any type of desire to have sex with males will always be sinful, because as stated in scriptures - men are commanded by God - to exclusively marry and only *lay*(or have sex with) women that they are married to.
So in a nutshell - being a homosexual, or fantasizing/being attracted to having sex with other men -- is always a sinful behaviour.
__________________
Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom.
If you frequently have thoughts about killing individuals - based on what they've posted within a message board, then I'd take a stab at saying you've commited quite a few more sins than that.
__________________
Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom.
Sins are a matter of CHOICE according to the Bible, due to the concept of Free Will. However, attractions and emotions have nothing to do with WILL...only ACTIONS are determined by will.
Sexual Attraction is natural, and cannot be altered by one's decision to do so. There is NO CHOICE when it comes to one's sexual orientation, ONLY a choice when it comes to thier ACTIONS.
Your assertion contradicts the VERY basis on which you build it upon..the Bible. Since SIN is a matter of Free Will, and sexual attraction is NOT a matter of free will, homosexuality is NOT a sin.....as Feceman already explained.
Then how come it doesn't always turn out like that ? WE cannot control what Nature gives us, so....since Homosexuality not only OCCURS in animals, how is it unnatural in human beings ?
The Human Sex Drive existed WAY BEFORE the concept of marriage, so your assertion is PURE bullshit based on religious bias, and nothing more.
1) So then Heterosexuals should NOT have sex, unless the goal is to achive child. They should not have sex for thier own pleasure, if God's goal for sex was only pro-creation. You can't have it both ways
And on that case, Infertile Men and Women shouldn't have sex either, if Homosexuals aren't allowed to, over the bullshit beleif that pro-creation is the only goal for sex.
2) Scriptures mean only as much as we allow them to mean. They don't mean jack sh*t to me, and I bet you favor one scripture over another. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of scriptures that YOU ignore, and other Scriptures you favor because it suits your own purposes. If you were to truly beleive ALL the scriptures, then you would have a problem with the numerous contradictions every scripture presents.
1) Sin is a CHOICE
2) Homosexual Attraction is NOT a choice
3) Sin is just a religious word, and has no realistic validity to it. It is subjective and only means as much as one beleives it to mean.
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Nov 27th, 2006 09:11 AM
