If you wanna go by words, it says in Lucifer's own comic that he created a Universe. It doesn't mention multiverses or alternate realities when he kills Michael and creates his own realm. It's assumed, but never directly stated.
And no, Lucifer cannot create time and abstract concepts. He is beyond many of them, but he cannot create them on a whim. That power was given only to Michael, and he needs to DIE to unleash it. That's what the Demiurgic power is, and that's why it isn't really a question as to if Lucifer should survive it or not. Lucifer cannot create matter. Michael creates, Lucifer shapes. That's how it worked in the beginning, that's how it worked in Lucy's private existance.
I vote HOTU and IG, on the assumption that IG can RIVAL LT's power, and HOTU is beyond it, where I don't think Lucifer and Michael are really all that and a bag of chips, as people assume them to be now.
LT was not able to judge Thanos when he posessed the HOTU, even if all realities were not destroyed. When he commanded everything to cease existing, but some places obviously survived, has anyone ever thought that it was because his mind did not encompass the concept of other realities? Like if he decided they all should die, they will, but he didn't so they lived? Just a thought, since he directly compares the IG to the HOTU, and says HOTU is much more powerful; Controlling it externally versus BEING a part of everything.
__________________ DarkCrawler is my hero... RESPECT LEONARD NIMOY!!!
As for the LT bit i dont agree with that and its not supported. Yes it was an Mbody but thats how he manifests into universe its how all the abstracts manifest into the universe as well because none of them have a physical body of their own. However they are still there in force through these M-bodies. Their essence and their power is housed in these M-bodies so LT was defeated regardless by HOTU in The End. That was made quite clear. There is no evidence whatsoever that only part of him was absorbed. Thats speculation.
So you're saying that Thanos was able to use a universal tool to totally absorb the entirety of the Living Tribunal from every reality across the multiverse? There's no evidence to support that theory either. For all we know, what was absorbed by Thanos could have been nothing more than a shard of the LT. Maybe he was in the ice cold room having a beer waiting for the rest of him to arrive. And seeing as how the abstracts have multiple M-bodies, their power must be divided in some way. Every M-body isn't the same: after being Infinity's avatar, Quasar encountered an M-body that didn't know him.
IMO it's sloppy Starlin writing. A few months later he had Galactus nearly being destroyed by a nuke. Thanos, if anyone, is certainly more than capable of comprehending other realities than his own. He's traveled down the dimensional corridor before, and Galactus followed his lead against Hunger because Thanos had more extra-dimensional experience.
I suppose I just have an issue with the idea that an artifact/relic/talisman can bestow enough power on the wielder to be able to totally remove the Living Tribunal from existence.
Why does everyone question the power of HOTU, but almost never the power of Lucifer? It states in his own comics that he helped create a universe. I don't think it ever once mentions him shaping many different realities when constructing his private realm. So if DC's original Creation only involved one universe, it would stand to reason that something with power enough to consume at least an entire universe, and possibly more, cuz the whole LT thing's an unknown, should be able to destroy Lucifer and Michael.
Go Heart of the Universe. And screw terminology! (oh, and sonce the IG granted control over all realities, and Thanos directly compared the HOTU to the IG, in that whatever he could control wiith the Gauntlet, which included many realities, was now a PART of him with the HOTU. Which would mean that he may indeed have consumed a "multiverse", and Warlock still managed to be outside of it.
Also, is Eternity not defined simply as a living universe with huge amounts of power? If Eternity by himself is a universe, Thanos did indeed absorb many, since he was definitely more powerful than Eternity when holding the IG, proving that he is multiversal when controlling the HOTU.
LOGIC RULES!
__________________ DarkCrawler is my hero... RESPECT LEONARD NIMOY!!!
The IG doesn't grant its weilder control over all realities, because all realities are based on the same principles as 616. Why would you suggest that he consumed a multiverse when he explicitly states that he destroyed his own universe?
Infinity/Eternity represent space/time for this universe and others based on the same principles. For other realities where physical laws are diferent (if some of them even have physical laws), those at the top of the food chain may be different. All universes in the multiverse aren't the same. They aren't based on the same principles.
Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not disputing that Thanos with THOTU is virtually immeasurably powerful. I just don't think that it's truly all powerful.
actually no, lucifer CAN create concepts like time it was explicitly stated that he could when he created the universe in the void, he created "THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR, TIME" and made it go"FORWARD" those are the actual words used in the comic, and no, that was a unique thing, the reason for creating that UNIVERSE was to heal micheal, to stop the dc multiverse from being destroyed, and to create a universe OUTSIDE god's creation. lets not forget that lucifer and micheal MADE the mainstreams dc multiverse to begin with, for god. so their power cannot be denied, either one has more power than the hotu and YES nuthing was said about WHAT the heart of the universe destroyed but we have a couple of things or evidences which suggest that it was the multiverse. thanos KILLED{or defeated and overpowered, whatever u wanna call it} eternity, infinity and the living tribunal. now one could also say that since death was not shown, in the scan, that means death is superior to the tribunal, but that is not the case, since the tribunal was clearly overpowered, that means that the explosion MUST have been multiversal, also, thanos said that he was below NO ONE, and he proved that by defeating the tribunal BADLY that means that he had ATLEAST power greater than that of the guardian of the multiverse itself, one who is beyond all concepts. has no other form in multiple universes and has cancelled the power of the infinite gauntlett with a single snap of the finger{ the same IG that killed etenity infinity. order chaos etc, with next to NO effort} now even if thanos was not actually above ALL. like the true god, he still was much much more powerful than the living tribunal, now if u look at all this it seems pretty damn stupid to speculate and say that it was just ONE universe that was destroyed and no other just cause there no direct proof of the multiverse dying, the way i see it, there no proof of a single universe dying either, and there is more than enough evidence to solidly suggest that the multiverse was destroyed{another thing, since like eternity, death, the livingtribunal had no counterparts, then if he was destroyed the guardian of the multiverse would be gone forever wouldnt he, but we have seen him after tha, which would suggest that the destrucion/ recreation theory of the MULTIVERSE is the right one} ofcourse no1 can be 100% sure if marvel does not explicitly discuss the matter, but we shouldnt say that only the 616 reality was destroyed.
another thing we should realize is that there might be different writers takin on the same subject as all marvel is connected just like dc/vertigo, this causes confusions in the universe/multiverse thing
Why would it not be correct to say that only 616 was destroyed when Thanos, throughout all six issues of the end, constantly referred to destroying HIS universe, and nothing else? I would imagine that he would know and acknowledge that his actions were multiversal, but he says nothing to that effect. He acknowledges that Adam Warlock was beyond the scope of his power, as he was with Atleza anchoring the 616 reality. If his actions were multiversal, there wouldn't be anyone left.
There's plenty proof that one universe dies, because that's what he says. Just because an M-body of the LT is present doesn't immediately imply that the actions have multiversal impact, just as his absence doesn't necessarily imply that something does not have multiversal impact. HOM illustrates that fact, as does the destruction of the lighthouse in Excalibur.
So you say that we should view his power and actions as multiversal when he himself says otherwise? I just can't swallow that.
The bodies that abstracts (or even higher physical cosmic beings like Galactus) use in order to make an appearance somewhere where their actual presence isn't required. Or even when their actual presence is required, the abstracts use these anyway. Example of this was when Quasar was looking for the 'real' Eternity... he hopped around and it was shown that the Eternity during Warlock's trial was just an m-body.
There is only one LT that guards over the multiverse you have no evidence to say he's split up into M bodies across the multiverse in each reality. The whole thing about LT that made him greater than most other cosmic entites is that he is beyond the restrictions of reality there is one of him in the multiverse as opposed to many other beings who have alternate reality counterparts. The LT you see in What Ifs is the very same one you see in 616 appearances. To lighten the load he has tribunals which deal with smaller scale matters in each universe. We saw one of them in She Hulk recently. However until you have evidence that shows that that was not LT in his entirety as was presented by the comic then all this talk is speculation. There is one LT who watches over creation, he delegates smaller scale work to cosmic tribunals however when a large scale problem arises he is there to deal with it.
Thats completely understandable. I just hope soon we have some clarification on what exactly the HOTU is and where it stems from.
If he could controll all realities then why is there the reailty gem for?The Infinity Gauntlet is among the most powerful artifacts in the Marvel Universe. The Gauntlet consists of the six Infinity Gems mounted on a gold glove. Each Infinity Gem grants its bearer complete mastery over one aspect of the Universe:
Time
Space
Power
Soul
Mind
Reality
With possession of all six Infinity Gems, the bearer would have complete omnipotence over the Universe, though not necessarily the omniscience required to effectively wield that power. Later comics added the existence of a seventh gem called the Ego Gem.
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Nov 1st, 2005 06:12 AM
