Well Superman was the first "super" hero that sparked off the comic book boom that was the Golden Age of comics, and by being that, everyone seems to be compared to him in one way or another. So ultimately, and by having that sort of position, he can never truly be topped.
When they compare others to him, people are usually like "this guy's way better than Superman" though. Seriously though, every popular character is compared to other popular characters.
Anyways, alot of people still are in the dark just what Supes is truly capable of. Unless of course they watched TAS, or the final episode of Justice League Unlimited where he decided he had enough of Darkseid.
The reeeeally popular ones. Supes is very powerful, but that wouldn't make him the ultimate. There are more powerful ones out there if we're basing this on power. DCAU is awesome. TAS & JLU were great shows
It's difficult for some people to relate to Superman, so they find another superhero they like and deem him better. Cause I've heard it all. But the fact that alot of people still compare heroes to him is very telling to me.
And I'm not basing Supes being the ultimate on sheer power. That's a weak argument if I were. Actually, in this case, I believe alot of people consider him to be the ultimate Superhero ever since his creation in 1938. And for good reason. He's arguably the most recognizable, and one that has sustained continued popularity thru the years where he could easily support numerous titles (even Batman cannot say this as Detective was on the verge of being cancelled before the Adam West tv show, where Superman had "Superman", "Action Comics", "Lois Lane", "Jimmy Olsen", and "World's Finest" though I wouldnt necessarily count the last one) without fail.
Unfortunately, Superman hasnt experienced much success as a film property. As we really havent seen a good Superman film since Superman II in the early 1980's. Which is a shame in itself.
But yeah, I'm basing this on much more than simply "power".
Wolvie has done some dumb shit like surviving nukes. When I said Wolvie was overrated by some, writers were included. Supes on the other hand has walked thru a number of Gogs while POISONED by K-nite AND having a heart attack IIRC. I haven't heard of too many feats dumber than that. I heard he beat anti-monitor or somebody by absorbing anti-sun radiation or something like that too. Supes has had his bad times as well. Every popular hero has. Not just Bats. &other heroes have been compared to Batman as well.
As I stated above, Superman has never experienced that downward spiral than other Superheroes have in terms of popularity and such. For 70+ years now, he's one character that has continually supported a number of titles on a consistent basis. And in short, that right there (though I could sit here and mention other examples) makes him rather atypical than the others who were created during the Golden Age, and at some point or another, either got cancelled, or found themselves in a slump where the character could barely support one title.
But you know ... people like a character with an edge. With an attitude (which really got completely out of hand during the 1990's). And even though you got a group of people who insist that such and such is WAAAAY better than Superman, Supes is obviously a character that continues to appeal to a good number of people even to this day.
History: Supes was getting his @ss utterly kicked in sales by a character many consider to be a ripoff(Cap'n Marvel). He had to be made more like his "ripoff" to survive. Everytime you see Supes fly, thank CM. He's had his bad times just like everybody else. That "edge" stuff doesn't hold water. Spidey isn't all badass like Wolvie & he almost ALWAYS takes the top spot.
You should check out the Hancock/Superman thread. Some believe that anyone who either has flight, super strength, durabilty or speed is a ripoff of Superman.
Heres some more History: Considering that Captain Marvel, unlike Superman, didnt enjoy success in other mediums such as newspaper strips, paramount shorts, various merchandise endeavors, and a little something called a radio show, I wouldnt be quite so sure Supes was utterly getting his ass handed to him on a regular basis by the big red cheese. I'm completely aware that at one point in time, Captain Marvel was outselling Superman. But completely destroying him? That's a bit far fetched. And the fact that Supes leaped over tall buildings in a single bound instead of flying during his initial appearances never bothered me. The character clearly evolved over the years. Powers and all. As he was certainly more Clint Eastwood in attitude in Action #1 than Christoph
It wasn't so much evolving as imitating CM. He should still be jumping high. &you just brought up something else that's very important. Wolvie never got so ridiculous that he had to be killed off & restarted like Supes has. Neither has Spidey.
So going from a social crusader, to the ultimate authority figure wasnt evolving? Daily Star to the Daily Planet? Not being able to see thru lead? The introduction of Kryptonite (which was originally K-Metal)? Just simply imitating Captain Marvel?
Seriously, you urgently need to check out the documentary detailing the entire Death of Superman on the Superman/Doomsday DVD. If even just for that. But here, I'll save you some time. There wasnt anything ridiculous going on with Superman at the time (care to give any examples of this ridiculousness?). And originally, he was to be married, but with the introduction of Lois and Clark tv show on ABC, plans got pushed back. And the running joke, that always happened at the big meeting at DC, finally came to pass.
As far as Wolverine and Spidey go: Wolverine just has to deal with the current and horrible Wolverine Origins. And Supes never had a, since we want to get on the subject of ridiculous, clone saga and a retconned marriage either.
I was talking about PCrisis Supes. He was ULTRA lame. New powers whenever he needed them. As for the clone saga(I haven't kept up on Origins)......Bad stories for great characters. Point still stands. PC Supes HAD to be wiped out. It was GOOD for him. He needed it. Never happened to Spidey or Wolvie. What happened to Spidey was BAD 4him. If you NEED to be restarted, you likely weren't that good 2begin with. Flight was ripping CM. Not evolving. All I'm talking about was flight. I don't know how I could have made myself any clearer on that.
Um, it was POST-Crisis Superman that bit the dust. NOT Pre-Crisis Superman. Doomsday wouldnt have been able to do much with a Pre-Crisis Superman, but since this was following the reboot, where Supes was noticeably less powerful, it was more conceivable to have Superman being killed by a hulk-like being such as Doomsday. There wasnt anything remotely ridiculous going on 6-7 years prior to the whole "Death" storyline.
And let's make this simple, it was good for the DCU as a whole to be restarted during the mid 1980's. NOT JUST Superman. When you throw in Earth's 1-384765, it gets very confusing to new readers. Which is exactly why the reboot happened. It wasnt placed in effect because Superman alone needed rebooting. The ENTIRE DCU needed a fresh start. Comics can certainly become bogged down in continuity, and DC comics definately had it's share (hell, even "Crisis on Infinite Earths" couldnt get DC's continuity clear, hence "Zero Hour" 10 years later). So no. It wasnt just Superman getting a restart, kids. Obviously, it goes much further than that.
And on the issue of Spidey, the entire Clone Saga in itself was a pretty horrid attempt at a reboot if you really sit down and think about it. You do remember Ben supposedly being the REAL Spider-Man with Peter being the clone, and a revamp of villains right? Fortunately, it didnt work out. And Marvel had to bring back Norman Osborn as a Lex Luthor type of character and who had been dead for about 20 years to try and get things back on track in a pretty lackluster explanation.
As far as flight goes, Superman first flew in the very first Paramount cartoon. Then radio, and comics followed. So to assume it was a rip on Captain Marvel is your prerogative. But as for me, everytime I even LOOK at CM, I see a very blatant rip off of Superman. Perhaps even more so than the 1930's "Wonder Man" comic.
Both ripped off the superhero in tights, and feats of superhuman strength in any event.
Last edited by The-Hulk on Apr 6th, 2009 at 08:20 AM
Um, it was POST-Crisis Superman that bit the dust. NOT Pre-Crisis Superman. Doomsday wouldnt have been able to do much with a Pre-Crisis Superman, but since this was following the reboot, where Supes was noticeably less powerful, it was more conceivable to have Superman being killed by a hulk-like being such as Doomsday. There wasnt anything remotely ridiculous going on 6-7 years prior to the whole "Death" storyline.
And let's make this simple, it was good for the DCU as a whole to be restarted during the mid 1980's. NOT JUST Superman. When you throw in Earth's 1-384765, it gets very confusing to new readers. Which is exactly why the reboot happened. It
Um, it was POST-Crisis Superman that bit the dust. NOT Pre-Crisis Superman. Doomsday wouldnt have been able to do much with a Pre-Crisis Superman, but since this was following the reboot, where Supes was noticeably less powerful, it was more conceivable to have Superman being killed by a hulk-like being such as Doomsday. There wasnt anything remotely ridiculous going on 6-7 years prior to the whole "Death" storyline.
And let's make this simple, it was good for the DCU as a whole to be restarted during the mid 1980's. NOT JUST Superman. When you throw in Earth's 1-384765, it gets very confusing to new readers. Which is exactly why the reboot happened. It wasnt placed in effect because Superman alone
Triple post? The Spidey stuff you mentioned is still just bad writing &I agree w/you 100% that it was horrid. These all have one thing in common. Radical changes 2 Spidey. Changing Spidey = bad for him because he's already great. Changing Supes = good for him because he needed it because he was too lame for words to describe. Does PC Supes still exist or was he wiped out? Supes was the MOST in need of a reboot wasn't he? Wasn't he changed the most? I don't hear much of PC Batman.
Changing Supes mainly had to happen cause of A. Continuity problems (having two Supermen flying around would be confusing to any new potential readers, and B. He became WAY too powerful. I mean, how does one write conflict into a story when the hero can literally blow out a friggin star, and juggle planets with ease!?! Post-Crisis Supes was very much depowered, and brought upon elements that are still being used today. Changing Lex from a mad scientist type, to a more evil corporate businessman figure was one of the many changes I enjoyed following the reboot.
Post-Crisis Supes still exist, though his history hasnt been made fully clear following the introduction of "New Earth" in Infinite Crisis where DCU continuity was changed yet again. Apparently, now ... Supes was Superboy before becoming Superman. Which was a Pre-Crisis element. And now Lex spent some time in Smallville just as he did in the Pre-Crisis history where in Post-Crisis, Luthor was unaware of Clark until Superman showed up in Metropolis. Another change in this "New Earth" continuity following Infinite Crisis is that Joe Chill is once again the murderer of Bruce Wayne's parents. Which wasnt the case following "Zero Hour"
I'm not sure if Supes was the MOST in need of a reboot. Wonder Woman got a complete reboot as well. Which was well received. Aquaman got a complete reboot too, but his blue costume soon got back to his orange and green tights. Superman got most of the attention because of who he was following all the 1980's reboots. Batman's history wasnt completely rebooted, but re-tellings of key events took place, and continue to take place, such as the early part of his career (Batman Year One and Two), Dick Grayson becoming Robin, and various re-tellings of Batman's first encounters with his rogues gallery.
Basically, not everyone at DC Comics played ball with this complete reboot of the company which was to have followed "Crisis on Infinite Earths", so during the mid 1990's, we got "Zero Hour" to help clean up and explain some questions in continuity which were left unexplained. Like Hawkman for example.
Flight: Supes was first shown to clearly fly in the old Paramount toons. Which was around 1941 or 1942. If CM was shown to have the power of flight first in the comics, good for him. However, if you ever take a look at any of the Superman Chronicles volumes, or any of the reprints of the early 1940's newspaper strips, there are definately panels which suggest Superman flying. It just wasnt outright stated. And for any kid who began reading these comics back then, and I'm sure there was many, I can see how flight was assumed over "leaping" in some of these stories. Cause his then ability to simply leap a mile or whatever certainly wasnt stated each and every time he did it.
No idea on if the 1930's Wonder Man ripoff flew, but he only lasted one issue from what I hear. CM made his debut shortly after Wonder Man, but I think the fantasy of a kid uttering the word, "Shazam" and becoming this big, muscled man with super powers had a profound effect on kids back then. Just as Robin had a profound effect on Batman's sales as well.
KMC Community Forums
Apr 2nd, 2009 06:23 PM
Seriously though, every popular character is compared to other popular characters.
It wasn't so much evolving as imitating CM. He should still be jumping high. &you just brought up something else that's very important. Wolvie never got so ridiculous that he had to be killed off & restarted like Supes has. Neither has Spidey.
