First of all venom's 'spider sense ' (or whatever equivalent he has) would allow the big kahuna to dodge your 'zig-zag' pattern of attack after all you cant zig-zag through the whole arena without leaving a gap large enough for BK to evade you in .
I doubt you can corner easily ( since the forward momentum would allow you to perhaps go diagonally but to do a full semi circle you would have to traverse the whole arena)
Your lightening can't follow me, lasers have been evaded my sabretooth before (and his durability has taken a few shots from them and survived anyway) your tentacles cant extend that far (your currently still going forward and zig zagging)
You may ionize the air , but i doubt you can do a magneto style throw down . You have shown proof that electro can magnetize objects, many of them about the average size of a microwave but nothing larger .
You turn around and try again , i don't need the gear since most of my weapons would more then likely be useless anyway , i web up your feet / boosters . you fall over and your concentration goes down as does any shielding/ionization ect. Your tentacles wave about in a threatening manner but as their class five i overpower them easily before making a rather sizable dent in your armour.
His spider sense is he can see omni-directionally, similar to my ability to see omni-directionally with the Ock Arms.
I don't really follow the rest of your comments...evade me in? Eh? I can turn on a dime.
No. All I have to do is turn my feet. The boot thruster is what he used to maneuver in close spaces.
Dodging lasers is PIS unless you have pre-cog, otherwise you're saying he has light speed reactions. He doesn't.
I'll zig zag around until I hit him enough with the electricity and lasers, then I magnetize him and/or seal him up in hard air. Either way he dies.
Multi ton trucks.
The editor says there are only two others on earth who can out do Electro in magnetsim, Magneto & Graviton.
I don't need to try but once, I'm just that damn good. I'm not going to fall over due to my super reactions. The tentacles are class 20 or so, not 5 and electrified.
I can bust out my coils on the way there as well, once they lodge inside, they aren't coming out. TBK can't break adamantium.
He's then electrocuted and beaten to death without a hope of getting away.
__________________
Supa-Mayne!
Last edited by long pig on Nov 12th, 2005 at 10:30 PM
Meh, let Jin do his own debating....I'll leave this match open long enough for him to get some good arguments in and such. So probably longer than a week at this point...don't want him feeling rushed.
Well i think i tried well enough for my first go at a amalgam debate/fight (even though Long has all of bk's damn weaknesses)
Ok digi , no more borrowing of other peoples characters when they go MIA. It's just i really wanted to debate just once before the next tourney as all i have done so-far was comment.
(oh and long pig the whole 'rocket feet thing was how i saw your movement, think wil.e.coyote when he straps fireworks to his feet .
Okay, friends and colleagues, I am sorry for my lack of appearance in my own damned tourney match, but I knew this would take time to discuss and to properly respond.
Now that I have that time, let us begin this epic battle.
Now, I believe that we need people to understand a few things about the overglorification of Shocktopus here.
Electro though shown to be a most dangerous enemy, has however NOT shown much stopping power to be impressive to Sabretooth alone, much less TBK. For instance, black cat has taken several electrical hits from Electro and was able to retain conciousness or at the very least survive. There are a handful of other humans who have done the same. Spiderman, has taken full on hits from Electro's power repeatedly during the same fights, and it hasn't been able to put the web slinger down. What can we gather from this? Well spiderman is certainly a durable character, but his durability doesn't really compare with the punishment that wolverine has taken. And what can that tell us? Well sabretooth was heads and shoulders above wolverine in terms of durability when he JUST had the adamantium... But now, due to his strength upgrades and upgraded healing factor he is even moreso durable than before. His healing factor (which was already faster acting than wolverine's) has been enhanced as well. From that I can gather, that if spiderman is capable of taking on electro's blasts for entire fights, then sabretooth alone should probably be able to take at the LEAST 3 to 4 times that amount of punishment. Now I remember that long pig tried to argue that his powers worked even worse on admantium but there is no reason to think this whatsoever. Admantium may not act as other farious metals, when we have seen electrical attacks inflicted on admantium bonded host bodies the results prove less than effective. For example, Wolverine was simultaniously being hit by warpath while storm hit him with lightning bolts, yet by the end of the confrontation, logan simply walked away, smoking a cigar and talking trash. In another instance, in recent thunderbolts, Wolverine had just fought 500 members of hydra at one of their headquarters when he reached the top of the building to fight swordsmen he again was hit with continuous lightning, again he simply got up and continued his attack. Even though long pig may WANT admantium to work in a way that secures him an advantage (as he obviously would) it doesn't change the fact that admantium as simply not shown to be a great obstacle to characters using it. Other feats that come to mind are captain america using his shield to literally deflect electrical bolts (even those sent at him by electro himself), sabretooth being hit with lightning bolts in his early days and not going down, falling onto an electrified railing in his fight with mrs. marvel and not even slowing down his pace. In conlusion to my first proofs I have determined that sabretooth ALONE would be a very difficult opponent for even the great shoktopus to take down even with free hits given. Luckly for me however, long pig isn't JUST dealing with sabretooth here.
Now, I think that it should be considered that electro's abilities while having all the same properties of basic electricity, may go through a drastic change when being conducted through Electro's body. While Venom's mauling and nearly killing of electro seems to be a bit unlikely at first, it certainly calls into question whether or not electro's powers can really effect venom at all, especially considering the time that electro has had a chance at hurting venom..................
................
.......... he failed to do so.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
.And for the last set of misconceptions and/or other things that need to be addressed we will take a look into long pig's "proofs".
As far as Long Pig's "proofs" on venom's vulnerability vs. flame, well.. there are definitely some blanks that need to be filled in for those examples to have a decent degree of validity.
for instance:
1.What long pig said: "Peter Parker: Spider-Man (Vol. 2) - #16 Venom is beaten by a lighter, that's right, a friggin pocket lighter." (which is about the best proof he's going to find on the matter)
What he didn't tell you- This particular issue was entitles "cliche" with the exception of the fight with sandman the entire issue is one big long joke including this moment with the lighter... spiderman however didn't beat him with a lighter, rather a bundle of paper he set aflame like a torch. This however is no big deal to me as Venom's feats that contradict the one presented here clearly and abundantly outweigh it to ridiculous degrees. It's the same as believing wolverine can be KOed by punches lacking any superstrength more often than not despite his feats that prove otherwise.
2. What long pig said: "Lethal Protector #3, Venom willingly jumps past knee high flames in order to save two people, he nearly dies in the process."
What he neglected to tell you- In lethal protector there is no such sequence.. . There are several scenes involving fire but none of them like the one long pig claimed. One scene venom is confronted with a literal hallway of flame and sonic shields designed to barracade him inside it. In another, Venom willingly sends his symbiote through an inferno to grab the villain inside it and carry the villain outside to safety unharmed due to the symbiotes protection against the flame. This resulted in venom being hurt but certainly not anywhere near killed as he fully recovered seconds later. The only other instance in the series were venom is faced with the obstacle of flame is when he gets his back set on fire. He doesn't even care.
3. What long pig said- "In one of their earlier fights, Spider-Man set a dock on fire to keep Venom at bay, but Venom dove into the water to avoid it."
What long pig neglected- "one of their earlier fights" exactly, the same venom was still able to be downed by loud speakers, both fire and loud speakers are weaknesses he's been able to adapt to...
4. What long pig said- "During the "Carnage" storyline, Venom had to take out the Human Torch long-distance by whipping sand at him to douse his flame."
What long pig neglected- long pig, you say this as if human torch wasn't someone who had the capability of going supernova at a whim. As if human torch was an acceptable street level by tourney standards. The fact of the matter is that spiderman had just blasted venom full on with a sonic gun, Venom took it head on and then beat spiderman and his toy into the ground. Human torch made a fire ring around venom and venom sent his tendrils underground and out the other side both putting out ht's flames and grabbing him with his tendrils to drown him in the water. HT had to use all his power just to go nova and get venom off of him what was venom's response? "oooh that tingles.." All you've done with this proof is assert that venom is far more cunning, intelligent, and dangerous than he's been given credit for. At no point was venom nearly killed by any flame here, he wasn't even threatened by it..
5. What long pig said-"In the Funeral Pyre mini series, pyrokinetic bad guy Pyre nearly killed Venom with one blasts of heat."
What he neglected- Funny how you forgot to mention that punisher had been fighting venom previous to that and had been blasting venom with a rather enormous sonic emitor, THEN when pyre did blast venom it was one blast yes... one CONTINUOUS blast that lasted for several minutes, long enough for venom to have a conversation with the boy. Not only this but the blast was a super induced microwave radiation that was not only hot but forced Brock's healing factor into overtime to deal with said radiation and fight it off, as it had previously fought off cancer.
6. What long pig said- "In Maximum Carnage, Shiek and Carnage stuck Venom up on the ceiling and put a camp fire under him to keep his symbiote in check."
What he neglected- The camp fire HELPED to keep the symbiote in check, Carnage however was routinely blasting venom with a sonic rifle specialy designed for the taking down of symbiotic others, WHILE gutting him with tendril weapons. Venom was already taxed out having survived a werehouse explosion, inferno, and marching right through shreik's sonic blast in a battle previous to being captured.
7. what long pig said- "Now, lets remember that the symbiote REDUCES the users healing factor to keep the wearer's body from rejecting it, making Sabretooth's healing less than normal."
What he neglected- no it doesn't... this was just a theory that scoobless made up. How you think this is even possible given the properties and abilities of the symbiote is beyond me. Not only is it contradicted by the symbiotes power (which is to absorb AND amplify the abilities of it's host as proven in planet of the symbiotes and what if no.4 {it being a what if issue doesn't matter, the abilities of the costume didn't change, just the events}), but also contradicted by venom's own series where he absorbs wolverine for the very purpose of having wolverine's abilities to compliment his own. Wolverine's powers are what caused venom to recognize that he was the perfect host. The symbiote does not and can not reduce powers it only amplifies them. My healing factors (FACTORS not factor) will be working just fine and then some, not that I'll ever have the need to use it in this fight however.
8. what long pig said- "Also, as seen recently, the symbiote no longer holds ANY sentimental relationship with the wearer, if the symbiote feels it's life is in danger, it will leave it's host and flee the scene."
What he neglected- because it's bond with brock was broken after brock rejected it. I've already proven that venom was still attached to brock in many sentimental ways due to it's choosing him over a healthy girl full well knowing brock was on the verge of death by cancer. The only problem for brock was that he had been seperated from his symbiote for an overly extended period of time and didn't rebond with it until "the hunger" storyline took place in the spidey titles, this caused the symbiote to evolve itself into being capible of surviving without need for a host body other than the purpose of food. Brock was able to regain some of his sanity without the symbiote, but in light of looking upon his life without the symbiotes influence to encourage him, he realized how badly screwed up he truly was, and lost much hope for himself. Knowing his death was at hand he opted for penance and drove the symbiote away from himself in order to sell it to the underworld. However due to the fact that TBK has not had such problems you won't be able to use that to your advantage.
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__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
During prep:
Okay, it's been made pretty clear that while electro can zap spiderman's webbing off of him, however, the effect is not instantanious. Nor near as quick as LP wants it to be. One strand of webbing has caused electro to lose enough time for spiderman to gain ground on him and pummble the crap out of him before he could escape. In new avengers 4 luke cage asks spiderman how he used to beat electro up in the past.. spiderman responds with "well I just webbed my hands into mits and pounded the crap out of him". The webbing has enough elastic properties to deflect and defend against the energy output that electro dishes out. Due to it's elastic nature, it works nearly like a set of rubber gloves (which by the way have also been proven to render electro's powers as a non threat), enabling spiderman to freely wail away at electro while avoiding any feedback in return. My initial time during prep will be spent having exactly this in mind.
Venom's webbing is elastic like spiderman's but it's stronger too, more resiliant. I will use my prep time to extend out 12 tendrils 35 feet in length. I will spray both my body and my tendrils with the webbing but use the symbiote to displace the webbing as like an armor so that it does not hinder my mobility. After that I will use my energy gauntlet to spray energy webbing over the regular webbing. The energy webbing having the same properties has spiderman's webbing, will not only act as a deflecter of the eletrical currents in the fight, but it will also act as a way to absorb any laser blasts pointed my way. ON TOP OF THAT I will spray another layer of webbing armor for further security.... then generate energy shields en mass. I will place the energy shields over my body and tendrils as much as can be alloted without hindering my mobility, my symbiote will latch onto them through holes selectively left open in the web armor. I will then secure that symbiote with layers of webbing as well.
I will draw out my sword, and secure it to the end of one of the tendrils, webbing over the handle for safety. the same goes for the pistols.
What I've done here is use my prep time effectively and intelligently (I can also do this ON the battlefield simply by making some shields and allowing a few tendrils to direct their movement while I use my speed and agility to web myslef up while dodging/blocking). While long pig certainly had some advantages in spite of past feats that condradict he could actually win against me without this "armor".. with it.. there is no doubt that I have completely taken away his two biggest offensive advantages here, he can no longer hit me with electrical currents nor can he hit me with lasers. The two best advantages he had in this fight have just been taken away from him.
various points:
TBK of course still won't simply stand there to take the punishement.. throughout this fight he will dodge if dodging is necessary. The armor he's created is simply a saftey procussion that ensures victory. long pig will of course argue that I can't dodge his attacks, I however see no reason as to why not. TBK has better agility than spiderman and his reaction time should be just as fast if not faster. Sabretooth can see bullets moving at him in slow motion, so dodging lighting won't be too incredibly difficult.. hell Iron fist has done it, cap has done, plenty of people at peak human levels have done so. Your lasers.. might almost be threatning it it weren't for my shields.. you know.. AND the fact that a hit from said laser didn't even destroy a brick wall that spidey dodged infront of... and again, considering the fact that sabretooth can and HAS dodged lasers in the past, with superior moc-spidey sense and photographic reflexes to work with, his ability to do so only increases... Anything in terms of speed I see shocktopus do, I can in turn replicate with perfection. It was being tortured and nearly killed along with him being wounded and having a human body and bone structure that caused taskmaster to use his super speed throughout only one fight before he had to let it up.. tbk definitely doesn't suffer from any of those problems in the least. Considering the symbiote already puts a normal human at comparible speeds to spiderman imagine what it does to an enhanced metahuman such as sabretooth. Speeds not an issue in this fight as we're both pushing the cap set for it. Mobility is however, I can move to and fro whichever way I please... long pig can.......... move (THRUST) forward...
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
long pig has certainly done a large amount of talking shocktopus up, but he's done little to prove the premises to his arguments, he's done less to prove the capabilities of his character. Well I'll reveal them for the audience so that he can no longer simply walk through his competition due to uneducated public opinion.
Electro does not nor did he ever have a forcefield. He's an electrically charged battery and zaps people that try and touch him, but this field "shocking effect" couldn't even put down captain america, it only further annoys spiderman, he has an aura of ionizing air molecules that can causes a human body a headache, he generates random electrical currents that run around him the way any random electrical currents would without a conduit. Yet for all the talking up that long pig's done for electro, long pig (and many many other people appearantly) has forgotten that spiderman punches seem to effect electro just fine. If electro had such a badass shield how come he constantly gets flattened by barrages from spiderman? Hell even when his powers where enhanced to his "god-like" state he still got taken out by having a damned rock chucked at his head, where was his shield then?
The fact is, he doesn't have one, not one that resembles ANYTHING close to what long pig's trying to argue for. Nothing of the sort has ever been displayed nor has it ever been proven by long pig other than ONE misinterpretation of an artist's rendition which hardly qualifies as canon material to judge from.
As far as his tenticals go... I have 12 well protected tendrils that can block and secure his tenticals at my will. Any h2h confrontation between my tendrils and his tenticals will reuslt in a complete loss for him... If his tenticals are on the attack I simply grab them with my tendrils and tie them together with webbing, the resulting combination of current charges will actually work to short cuircut elctro's powers thus resulting in a backlass against shocktopus rendering him unconcious the exact same way tieing up eletro's hands and feet did to him. So if long pig wants to stay behind his shield and attack me with tenticals he can, but I will either rip them apart as he watches helpessly, or I'll cross the currents to short circuit his ass for the win. It matters not to TBK.
The sword I'll simply use as a way to close ground.. any electrical blasts he sends my way will be conducted by the sword, the current will be stopped at the hilt due to the webbing there thus acting as a way to diverge the blasts from hitting me at all. HE can try to magnetize the metals but it would take concnetration on his part and he needs a certain amount of strength with the technique to rip them away from or force against my tendrils. But I'll simply call him out on it right now.
The problem for long pig is that he's already admittedly using his powers at their max for this fight (probably hoping for a quick victory) and while he has no sheild to speak of if the plan is that he wants to fry me he'll have a hard time doing that while simultaniously magnetizing anything..
while I'll also point out that magnetizm can be viewed as a form of telepathy in this case and void for the purposes of this debate....
I will also argue that when certain degrees of heat are asserted to farious metals, the metal actually loses the property to be magnetized. His primary strategy is a contradictive one and does nothing but waste time while allowing me to close the gap furthermore.
Now of course if I chose to go in close for the kill he'd no doubt try to argue for his shields. One shield he doesn't even have, the second, though THOUGHT indestructible was certainly anything but inpenetrable. While I'm on the warpath toawrds you, you'd most likely try to stop my advance with eltrictricty, I'd simply dodge them, delfect them with my guns and swords acting as conduits and take whatever is left with ease as I'm well protected by my shield/web/web/web armor. There's simply no way you can penetrate through my defenses from afar, which is why you would try to attack me with your tenticals.. when you did that, I would simply grab one of them while my 12 tentical/tendrils deflected or held the others in place, then I would walk up towards you and basically wall crawl along the tentical and right into that damned shield of yours.. female ock said it herself, the shield can be penetrated if something moves up along the tentical itslef.. the it's simply comes down to a h2h fight.. that's a fight you are not winning. You will of course want to use those coils... I will of course deflect them with the shields.. remember how the energy generater resembles properties of the things it replicates? remember how one energy shield held against it's vibranium/admantium counterpart? they an certainly hold against your barbed coils long enough for me to cut your throat....
As far as your speeds concerned... you are no quicksilver, nor are you flash, or hell even speed demon... all characters that have been straight up handeled by my boys or the likes there of... your speeds were stripped of you at the beginning of this tourney and you can only go in short burst, you however haven't displayed any feats of speed freaks agility and or reflexive combat skills... the guy keeps getting smashed by ulk WITH his thrusters... yet you think your speed avials you here? it most certainly does not I'm afraid. Venom's proven to fast for hulk, wolverine has as well and he's slower than sabertooth. cap and dd have as well and the're both part of my arsenal in TM... On the physical level you simply can not compete with TBK which is why your best bet was to go for the range, but since I've pretty much stripped those advantages from you during prep time, you have nothing left going for you but a very nasty and a very messy death.
Also long pig, this is irrelivent in this particular fight, but since when has electro displayed the power to absorb heat?
I mean if this truly was the case the explosion that occured in MK spidey 3 wouldn't or shouldn't have done as much damage as it did to electro resulting in him being at spiderman's mercy.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
well that's probably the last.. albiet the first long posts I will be able to contribute to this thread I'm afraid.. hopefully I'll be able to keep up.. thank you digi for the time extension though I truly needed it.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
This is quite a close fight. LP holds what are supposed to be Venom's weaknesses, but Jinzin has, in turn, proven them to be... not really his weaknesses. Electro's cool, and definitely jobs to Spiderman a LOT, but TBK is way the hell too beastly. And he's the first one yet to use prep...
Vote Jinzin.
__________________ DarkCrawler is my hero... RESPECT LEONARD NIMOY!!!
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
KMC Community Forums
Nov 12th, 2005 06:56 PM
"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
on venom's vulnerability vs. flame, well.. there are definitely some blanks that need to be filled in for those examples to have a decent degree of validity. 
. There are several scenes involving fire but none of them like the one long pig claimed. One scene venom is confronted with a literal hallway of flame and sonic shields designed to barracade him inside it. In another, Venom willingly sends his symbiote through an inferno to grab the villain inside it and carry the villain outside to safety unharmed due to the symbiotes protection against the flame. This resulted in venom being hurt but certainly not anywhere near killed as he fully recovered seconds later. The only other instance in the series were venom is faced with the obstacle of flame is when he gets his back set on fire. He doesn't even care. 
this was just a theory that scoobless made up. How you think this is even possible given the properties and abilities of the symbiote is beyond me. Not only is it contradicted by the symbiotes power (which is to absorb AND amplify the abilities of it's host as proven in planet of the symbiotes and what if no.4 {it being a what if issue doesn't matter, the abilities of the costume didn't change, just the events}), but also contradicted by venom's own series where he absorbs wolverine for the very purpose of having wolverine's abilities to compliment his own. Wolverine's powers are what caused venom to recognize that he was the perfect host. The symbiote does not and can not reduce powers it only amplifies them. My healing factors (FACTORS not factor) will be working just fine and then some, not that I'll ever have the need to use it in this fight however. 
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