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Dumbledore's Death Definately a fake
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Rapscallion
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by AidenBurn
To join this absurdity, two words can't kill anyone. All I'm saying is this is fiction, so we shouldn't rely on real-life facts.


On the contrary, we have to rely on real-life facts. Obviously J.K. Rowling hasn't created an entirely fictitious world. She has assumed that we will take some things for granted and she won't have to describe them. Things like gravity, inertia, friction, anything that has to do with pysics, but also other things like the dynamics of human relationships, human emotion, the phisiology, ad anotomy of the characters. She doesn't mention these things because she doesn't have to. If she says "Harry ate some treacle tart" she doesn't have to describe what how he does it, because we know the characters have human anatomy and we know the culture from which he's from. So, the reason for my rant is that there are elements to the story and setting, in fact almost of the elements come from real life. Magic is just a miniscue part of the world Rowling created. You are right, people don't die from hearing two words. Ava Kedavra acually has to do something. Using real life facts to determine what it does in terms of phisiology will end this conversation.


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Old Post Mar 18th, 2006 02:05 PM
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Broken Darkness
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This is interesting, I've never heard this idea before... it'd be just like Rowling to suddenly throw a twist in like that. Very Interesting... I'll have to reread and take a look at this stuff.


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Old Post Mar 21st, 2006 06:59 AM
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Council#13
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no expression im sorry can that person please say that again? i didnt quite catch it...


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Old Post Mar 21st, 2006 11:58 AM
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Rapscallion
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Who? Me??

In a nutshell, I said that there are some elements in Harry Potter that we must assume are the same as they are in real life. (Example: characters' annatomy+physiology) By using what we know about the real world, we can understand how some fictitious elements of the story in Harry potter work.


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Old Post Mar 22nd, 2006 08:52 PM
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Broken Darkness
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Wait... there's one problem with this theory of dumbledore's death being fake, and i'm not trying to be a brat, i'm just wondering how this would work. How could Dumbledore's death be fake? Snape made an unbreakable vow with Narcissa to complete Draco's assignment if he was unable to complete it himself. And there's no way that voldemort told draco to fake dumbledore's death. He'd want him fully dead.


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Old Post Mar 22nd, 2006 09:19 PM
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Dulcie
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rapscallion
On the contrary, we have to rely on real-life facts. Obviously J.K. Rowling hasn't created an entirely fictitious world. She has assumed that we will take some things for granted and she won't have to describe them. Things like gravity, inertia, friction, anything that has to do with pysics, but also other things like the dynamics of human relationships, human emotion, the phisiology, ad anotomy of the characters. She doesn't mention these things because she doesn't have to. If she says "Harry ate some treacle tart" she doesn't have to describe what how he does it, because we know the characters have human anatomy and we know the culture from which he's from. So, the reason for my rant is that there are elements to the story and setting, in fact almost of the elements come from real life. Magic is just a miniscue part of the world Rowling created. You are right, people don't die from hearing two words. Ava Kedavra acually has to do something. Using real life facts to determine what it does in terms of phisiology will end this conversation.


Au contraire again if I might. Your example is perfect, JKR doesn't have to tell us how Harry eats. But eating is something I do, you do, and everybody else does, either they live in this world or HP world. We know it because we do it. Killing is also a thing that people (unfortunately) do, but not with a wand, so we don't know how it works. And if Sirius has the same human anatomy as I do then why can he turn into a dog and why can't I? If I have to use real-life facts to everything in the books, I'm saying Harry might have hallucinated the whole thing.


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Old Post Mar 23rd, 2006 05:18 PM
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ndfreak
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this is all i hav to say:
the killing curse DOES fling u backwards look at how digory died, his body went FLYING BACKWARDS!!! so if any1 is still sayin tat snape didnt use the killin curse i gotta say tat cant b an excuse(unless it was jus a movie maker mistake)

Old Post Mar 24th, 2006 12:30 AM
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Rapscallion
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by AidenBurn
Au contraire again if I might. Your example is perfect, JKR doesn't have to tell us how Harry eats. But eating is something I do, you do, and everybody else does, either they live in this world or HP world. We know it because we do it. Killing is also a thing that people (unfortunately) do, but not with a wand, so we don't know how it works. And if Sirius has the same human anatomy as I do then why can he turn into a dog and why can't I? If I have to use real-life facts to everything in the books, I'm saying Harry might have hallucinated the whole thing.


Firstly, the reason you can't turn into a dog is because there is no such thing as magic. What I am saying is that animageous don't just become animals, something must hapen to the mechanics of their body such as the magic alters their DNA or makes them rapidly produce mutated hormonesor some such thing. Simply saying that they turn into a dog isn't saying what the spell does,. It says what the results of the spell does. Similarly, Avada Kedavra is a killing curse. The result is the death of its victim. What it actually does is unknown. Since what it does is not described in the fiction, we must assume that what it does can be described by facts. (Like Harry eating. It is not described, but using fact, we can determine the journey of a pumpkin pasty through Hrry's digestive system.)

Secondly, you don't have to use real-life facts to describe everything in the book, just things that the author doesn't describe herself. For example if Rowling says "Crookshanks the cat climbed a tree." we wouldn't need an explanation of what a tree is or what a cat is because we already know. However, if she mentions dementors, then she must describe it because we don't know what a dementor is. You can't (or shouldn't) Harry hallucinated the whole thing because the whole thing was described by Rowling as being real. (also, it would mean he would have had multiple dreams within a dream and have a continuing memory of all the events and dreams he had while in a dream state which would be one hell of crazy dream.)


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Old Post Mar 24th, 2006 11:42 PM
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maxxam12
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hey guys you say dumberdore is dead..... i thought that before but i did some research and i came up with some very good reasons to explain dumbeldore fake death.
1. Snape is one of the best at occlumens and legilimency..... and all the books state that dumbeldore is a quick thinker.... in that moment of silence before killing dumbeldore, dumbeldore could have communicated with snape and tell him his plan of a fake death.
2. When dumbeldore says "Please...... severus"
dumbeldore is asking snape to do the best he can with that new fake death task.
3. In the order of the phoenix book, JK Rowling states that a fordibben curse is not only to say the word you need to mean it or it will not work.
maybe snape said avada kadavra and :1. he didnt mean it
2. he said avada kadavra but he was thinking of another nonverval spell that shots a green light from the wand, remember that this fake death was not to convince the readers it was supposed to convince Lord Voldemort and the death eaters.
4. Dumbeldore planned all this fake death to save Draco...after all draco is not so bad... as dumbeldore says "he is not a murderer"
5. When Snape is leaving harry calls him coward and snape reacts in a weird way, this could be because harry was calling coward to a man who was risking his life as a double agent.
6. When snape makes the unbreakable vow, if you carefully examine the words they said, narcissa never ordered snape to kill dumbeldore, what they basically said was to protect draco and if draco failed he needed to fullfill the task but here is the funny thing, draco didnt kill dumbeldore but he did all the other thing so he was not going to get in trouble.
7. Snape is good and the last lesson he taught harry was when harry attacked snape and snape blocked his spell and said something like "close your mind and your mouth and you can hit me" or something like that.... what matters is snape was teaching the last lesson of occlumens.
I hope you agree with my reasons. Thanks to Denis Wowarth and HPL for this information.

Old Post Mar 30th, 2006 05:01 AM
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Denniz234
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i think the only reason you are talking about dd death being a fake is because you do not want him dead

Old Post Mar 30th, 2006 07:35 PM
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HPFAN1992
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by BloodyAngel
Wait... there's one problem with this theory of dumbledore's death being fake, and i'm not trying to be a brat, i'm just wondering how this would work. How could Dumbledore's death be fake? Snape made an unbreakable vow with Narcissa to complete Draco's assignment if he was unable to complete it himself. And there's no way that voldemort told draco to fake dumbledore's death. He'd want him fully dead.


If you re-read the end of the chapter where snape makes the unbreakable vow you will see that it says snape twitches his hand. Snape could have stopped the unbreakable vow from working therefore snape wouldnt die.

Also, the unbreakable vow might not work if the person it was made with 'thinks' the task has been completed.

Old Post May 30th, 2006 07:04 PM
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willRules
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by BloodyAngel
Wait... there's one problem with this theory of dumbledore's death being fake, and i'm not trying to be a brat, i'm just wondering how this would work. How could Dumbledore's death be fake? Snape made an unbreakable vow with Narcissa to complete Draco's assignment if he was unable to complete it himself. And there's no way that voldemort told draco to fake dumbledore's death. He'd want him fully dead.


Ah but it didn't say when he had to complete the the unbreakable vow or which part to help him with. He didn't necessarily help malfoy kill Dumbledore, he may have helped by getting Death Eaters into the school or other things related to killing Dumbledore.

In fact Snape may have killed Dumbledore, but that doesn't mean Dumbledore didn't plan it out that way. Earlier on the book Hagrid describes to Harry a conversation he overheard between Snape and Dumbledore, where Snape said he didn't want to do something and Dumbledore said that Snape had already agreed to doing this task and had to do it...

sounds like they are discussing the unbreakable vow and Dumbledore trusts Snape.

for more info this site is great.........

http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/dumbledoreclues.html

and clues for snape's innocence can be found here..........

http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/snapeclues.html


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Old Post May 30th, 2006 07:48 PM
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willRules
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Anyone been on the site???? Any thoughts???? smile


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Old Post Jun 1st, 2006 12:44 AM
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HPFAN1992
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Today I was thinking... What if Dumbledore saved Snapes life? This would mean there was a magical bond between them and therefore Snape could not kill Dumbledore because of the magical bond... Am I the only one who has thought about this?

Comment Please

Old Post Jun 1st, 2006 04:39 PM
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patriautism
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I agree

I have a few more situations to support your theory, and in my opinion sort of make it a fact.
I actually was dumbstruck when i read half blood prince the first time but when i read it again it made a whole lot of sense.
here are some more situations..
here is one that is obvious to me.

right before severus "kills" him, dumbledore begs for his life.
"severus please"
does dumbledore seem like the kind of guy to beg for his life?
if we look back to year one dubledore quoted these words
"After all, to the well-organised mind, death is but the next great adventure."

maybe him saying "severus please" wasn't him begging for his life but it was him begging snape to do it.

that's why he holds harry down and why severus didn't kill harry.
which is supported by a conversation hagrid and harry had after ron got poisoned.in thi sconversation hagrid mentioned that snape and dumbledore were arguing and snape was telling dumbledore that he took to much for granted and that maybe he (snape) didn't want to do it anymore. and dumbledore told him that he(snape) had agreed and that was all there was to it.
the is no more mention of that conversation.
that is why he is saying severus please
because snape couldnt do what dumbledore wanted him to do.


another thing is in order of the phoenix dumbledore talked about a solution being that he faked his death and go into hiding (huge hint)


dumbledore also gave snape the defense against the dark arts position KNOWING he wouldnt be there at the end of the year.

another thing is the killing curse
why did it throw dumbledore in the air when it just flat out killed everyone else cold?
werent they talking about saying one curse and casting another one that you're thinking about instead earlier in the book.(nonverbal spells)

dobby earlier in the book mentions hearing things in dumbledores aoffice and then says he would throw himself off the tower.
an idea he got from what he heard maybe?
but anyone flying in the air sounds more like the "Expelliarmus! curse to me
perhaps after he was thrown into the air dumbledore drank the living dead thing.


i think your facts and mine together make it pretty obvious that snape didnt really betray dumbledore

Old Post Jun 2nd, 2006 08:16 PM
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willRules
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Re: I agree

quote: (post)
Originally posted by patriautism
I have a few more situations to support your theory, and in my opinion sort of make it a fact.
I actually was dumbstruck when i read half blood prince the first time but when i read it again it made a whole lot of sense.
here are some more situations..
here is one that is obvious to me.

right before severus "kills" him, dumbledore begs for his life.
"severus please"
does dumbledore seem like the kind of guy to beg for his life?
if we look back to year one dubledore quoted these words
"After all, to the well-organised mind, death is but the next great adventure."

maybe him saying "severus please" wasn't him begging for his life but it was him begging snape to do it.

that's why he holds harry down and why severus didn't kill harry.
which is supported by a conversation hagrid and harry had after ron got poisoned.in thi sconversation hagrid mentioned that snape and dumbledore were arguing and snape was telling dumbledore that he took to much for granted and that maybe he (snape) didn't want to do it anymore. and dumbledore told him that he(snape) had agreed and that was all there was to it.
the is no more mention of that conversation.
that is why he is saying severus please
because snape couldnt do what dumbledore wanted him to do.


another thing is in order of the phoenix dumbledore talked about a solution being that he faked his death and go into hiding (huge hint)


dumbledore also gave snape the defense against the dark arts position KNOWING he wouldnt be there at the end of the year.

another thing is the killing curse
why did it throw dumbledore in the air when it just flat out killed everyone else cold?
werent they talking about saying one curse and casting another one that you're thinking about instead earlier in the book.(nonverbal spells)

dobby earlier in the book mentions hearing things in dumbledores aoffice and then says he would throw himself off the tower.
an idea he got from what he heard maybe?
but anyone flying in the air sounds more like the "Expelliarmus! curse to me
perhaps after he was thrown into the air dumbledore drank the living dead thing.


i think your facts and mine together make it pretty obvious that snape didnt really betray dumbledore




I agree. I think one of the biggest clues is what Hagrid overheard yes


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Old Post Jun 3rd, 2006 12:16 AM
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spanish seagull
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Dumbledore would not just die. JK would not do that! he is bound to come back.

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2006 07:56 PM
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willRules
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yes


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2006 12:20 AM
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patriautism
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by BloodyAngel
Wait... there's one problem with this theory of dumbledore's death being fake, and i'm not trying to be a brat, i'm just wondering how this would work. How could Dumbledore's death be fake? Snape made an unbreakable vow with Narcissa to complete Draco's assignment if he was unable to complete it himself. And there's no way that voldemort told draco to fake dumbledore's death. He'd want him fully dead.



well i just explaind a lot of sound theories that support his fake death.
one major thing is we don't know if draco's mission wasnt to just make the port key. they never mention the exact mission


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2006 02:01 AM
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willRules
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Re: I agree

quote: (post)
Originally posted by patriautism
dobby earlier in the book mentions hearing things in dumbledores aoffice and then says he would throw himself off the tower.
an idea he got from what he heard maybe?



I remember reading that after I read the book the first time and thinking it was a weird thing to say considering it happens later on in the same book.............


Kinda suggests Dumbledore was up to something..............


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2006 02:44 PM
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