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LIGHT SIDE DISCUSSION- Jedi Morality
Started by: Ushgarak

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yerssot
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and he said that to an arrogant PADAWAN, that's the difference, it was his first mission and a very important one...

btw, the only thing y'all know 'bout me is that I was with the darkies for a few months, that's all

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 08:52 PM
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Brith
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So if it wasn't to protect their reputation if Argentis goes mad why tell you not to interfere?

You see, the Council is meant to be this wise institution. If you decide to interfere you are going against all those people's views. However, if you don't know the reason behind those orders how can you tell if your reasons fo disobeying them are better?

As I said I'm not worried about whether you should or shouldn't follow their orders but did anyone think along the lines of "Well, Yoda is wiser than I am and he thinks a bad idea to interfere... so I probably shouldn't"?


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Brith thinks again....

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 08:56 PM
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yerssot
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Yoda doesn't know the sitation here...
"Always in motion the future is"
and they can make errors as well...

"His powers have made him arrogant"
"hmm, common among most jedi this is" (or something like that)
and Yoda and co didn't do anything to change that attitude

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:05 PM
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Ushgarak
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Not much confidence in the Council there!


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:08 PM
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Gundark
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Because the Padawan is instructed from day one to follow the council's orders without question. The council and the Masters who serve upon it have more experience and can instruct from that experience. It doesn't matter if an individual Jedi thinks, "well its more important or more sensible to do this instead of what I was instructed". The dependability of the Jedi and the institution it represents is based upon its unwavering system of beliefs.

Of course the council instructed us not to interfere in the Damagram conflict. It is not our place ! There is no peace to be kept there; it doesn't exist anymore. The council's concern is to retrieve the wayward Padawan Argentis before he brings more conflict into an already volitile situation thus helping to preserve the integrity of the Order.


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:13 PM
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Ushgarak
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In that case, Gundy, I assume you have the opposite view to yerss about the points Brith is making as well, yeah?


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:16 PM
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yerssot
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well, depends on how you look at OB1's quote I take... still think it's because OB1 is jealous and is his master...


You now say that since Damagarn left the Republic we just don't need to look after those people?
What if you step out of that palace and you see two pirates shooting at a bunch of children? now you are obligated to just walk away, because of some orders that Yoda and the others couldn't have seen coming

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:16 PM
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Brith
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Surely Yoda's comment could apply to you Yerssot? I mean, you argument seems to be "Hey, the Council can be wrong". Fair enough, but without an idea of their reasoning thats pure presumption on your part.


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Brith is afraid.

Brith thinks again....

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:18 PM
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Ushgarak
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I am saying, yerss, that you have no RIGHT to look after those people. No-one gives YOU the right to keep the peace in Damagran. In the Republic, those powers and responsbilities are invested in you- NOT outside it. And Faylar has a right to tell you to go away.

You have to understand you are policemen! Not judges of the universe!


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:19 PM
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Gundark
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Well of course you don't let them shoot the children ! Thats ridiculous ! Defending a bunch of children is not interfering in a planetary war !!


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:19 PM
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Ushgarak
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Indeed, I would say yerssot's thoughts are arrogant in the extreme and are exactly what Yoda was worried about.


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:20 PM
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yerssot
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according to HOTE we ARE judges of the universe...

No-one (excapt Ush?) will know 100% about Yoda's thoughts, perhaps it's related to something we haven't seen yet...

I think one dictator has everything to say, afterall, from what I heared it was the Jedi's job to get him to Coruscant, so that's suddenly possible? that's also intervening

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:23 PM
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Ushgarak
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Don;t try and accuse me of knowing Yoda's thoughts, yerss. I am making the same point Brith did. You are immediately assuming that you know better than the Council and can exceed your remit. That is extreme arrogance.

Yerss, who the heck gives you the RIGHT to be judges of the Universe? NO-ONE. That is just so much rubbish. The Republic gives you the right to be its policemen. The Jedi gladly accept that role. But they were GIVEN power, they didn't just assume it.

If the Jedi appoint themselves judges of the universe then they must be resisted by everyone, and brought to heel as soon as possible.

Fortunately, this ludicrous state of affasirs will never happen because the Jedi order has some humility- apparently unlike you.


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Last edited by Ushgarak on Jun 5th, 2002 at 09:43 PM

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:26 PM
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yerssot
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okayyyy... let's get this down one by one, real slowly so we don't talk about 100 things at a time...

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:30 PM
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Brith
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(To Yerssot's second post)

The population of Damogran is evenly split between pro and anti Republican forces. Now Faylar may be using the situation to his own ends, but the conflict on Damogran was an issue of self-determination. Faylar had an army - it wasn't that these people were forced to fight for him; they wanted out of the Republic. In such issues outside interference can only be for the worst. This is what Yoda knew. If the Jedi help one side in the war how are supporters of the other side ever going to think of Jedi as impartial again? Thats why the Council wanted to stay out of the conflict so they could be trusted by both sides after the war - a war the Republic was trying to resolve peacefully (hence the blockade).

By the way your example of the pirates - how does that relate to Faylar? Your orders are not to interfere in the war not turn a blind eye.


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Brith is afraid.

Brith thinks again....

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:34 PM
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Ushgarak
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Let me ask you a question, yerss. What if you went out kite flying this weekend, and then an American policeman from Washington came and arrested you for it? Kite flying is illegal there.

Wouldn't you say "You have no right to arrest me here, you're not a Belgain policeman" and ALSO say "and it's not illegal here!"

This is roughly what is happening on Damagran, though, Republican policemen enforcing Republican laws- outside the Republic. You can see why this would upset people.


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:35 PM
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Brith
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Since I started typing that about four people have posted to this thread. We should probably give people more time to reply!


__________________
Brith is afraid.

Brith thinks again....

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:36 PM
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Ushgarak
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And Gundy made a point similar to yours.

But very good points Brith has made there (at the end of the page before this one) and I highly recommend that they be read by all. Jedi mediation in Damagran after this war could be made impossible.


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Last edited by Ushgarak on Jun 5th, 2002 at 09:52 PM

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:39 PM
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Ushgarak
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I think everyone should also be aware that I am not saying that you should not have exceeded your powers by doing all this.

So long as you KNEW you were doing that, and judged the situation grave enough to warrant it. I am worried if people think that this is within the standard rights of the Jedi!

The confusion over the powers of a Jedi is unfortunate, but to clear it up for everyone now:

You are policemen with powers to act in the interests of peace and justice throughout the Republic. As Jedi you also have a moral responsbility to do good in general, but you must never assume you have the power to do what you like all the time. If you are inside a foreign culture you should respect that culture.

It is also frowned upon for Jedi to make moral judgments on alien cultures, but there is a limit to that (i.e. you still fight them if they are evil)


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Last edited by Ushgarak on Jun 5th, 2002 at 10:01 PM

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 09:59 PM
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