Oh stop being so melodramatic. I came and questioned your reasons for disliking it, not you actually disliking it. I didn't flame you or attack you by any definition of the terms. I attacked your logic.
Clearly an Ock fanboy.
He had a very English tang when pronouncing many words.
Physically, I've agreed that he's not up to scratch, but if he actually nails the part brilliantly, what does it matter?
No bias involved Doc Ock? With your Doc Ock avatar, sig and location? I bet there's no bias.
I've been reading Spidey comics since I was 8 years old. You once said "You don't know jack shit about me", so afford others the same luxury, hypocrite.
Molina had clear trouble speaking in American accents, listen to the conversation with Rosie.
What's more important in a movie? Looking the part or acting well? Don't say "Both are important", because I'm aware. I'm saying if you were a director, what would be MORE important to you?
Neither are yours, yet anyone who fails to adhere to them is branded a fanboy and someone who sucks up anything they're fed.
I know you can, you had a fit over the thread title, you claim Topher isn't Venom without his head covered.
Exactly, we take the mask of and see Peter Parker who is Spider-Man. So Peter Parker is not Spider-Man? His identity is secret, not entirely different identity. Peter Parker is Spider-Man, Eddie Brock is Venom, Clark Kent is Superman. You're being ridiculous.
Stan Lee says Peter Parker is Spider-Man, he says Banner is The Hulk, he says Victor Von Doom is Dr. Doom. Why are you being so outlandishly stupid as to say that if they are not fully dressed, they are not the superhero?
You're just retorting for the sake of it there, because the above post proves that you are the most anal poster on this board.
So Peter Parker using his powers without the suit isn't Spider-Man? It's Parker with Spidey powers? Hahaha, I hope everyone is reading this.
The symbiote can bond with Eddie Brock without covering his face, and when it's bonded he refers to them/himself as Venom. So...Eddie Brock, the writers of Marvel and his creators are...all wrong?
If Stan Lee came into this thread, you'd seriously say: "Stan, I know you created him, but Spidey without the mask isn't Spidey."?
That's handy, because I don't.
Everytime you refer to stupidity I'm going to quote you saying "No Spidey mask, no Spider-Man.". Deal? Sweet.
I never said they couldn't find an actor more physically suitable, I said they obviously didn't have the time to find an actor more physically suitable with suitable acting ability.
Conversely, you don't know that there wasn't anyone out there who could have done the job better. You're just pleased with who they chose, so they obviously choose their actors well, do they not?
Seen the film?
I don't remember saying that.
Wait...I was joking. You mean you actually want Venom from the comics to somehow appear in a film? Are you mental?
It's not, fact. I'm saying it, the statement is regarding me, I'm me. What I say about me is fact. You have no say.
That's not a translation, that's you saying something. I don't care if Venom is in the movie or not. I'd have been happy with Rhino.
Why are you twisting my words? You said you wanted Venom from the comics, THAT is unrealistic, he doesn't exist.
What's to say he didn't immediately see Topher and have a brainstorm? You? Oh, yeah.
No it's not, because bands have to tour together, spend years, months and days in each other's faces. If they don't get on, it won't be anywhere near as good, or as longevity-laced as it would be with someone they like, someone who fits. The same applies to acting.
If you are seriously going to sit in a movie theatre picking at how tall Venom is, I suggest getting a life, man. Seriously, and you call others sad fanboys? For shame, Doc.
As for the voice, what voice? Who said what Venom sounded like? It's a comic book adaptation. Unless you're judging by the cartoons, a cardinal sin for any comic fan.
I don't know yet, I've not seen him act as Venom.
Too bad Spider-Man never had organic webbing either. Oh...wait...didn't matter did it?
That's a fair claim, I can respect that.
Judging by your inability to come up with anything besides Dr. Freud (who has nothing to do with telepathy, by the way), it seems you've got a lack of imagination. This might be the problem.
This is nothing but pure opinion. I know that hurts to know, but it's the way it is. It's an argument over preference and as much as I dislike any kind of fanboy (I do agree with you there), their preference is not more disprovable than anyone else's.
Shh, stop making assumptions. I didn't fly off the handle, I'm telling you that I don't care if you like Venom or not. I honestly don't. If he's shit in the film, I will say he's shit in the film along with you. I'm curious as to your warped ideas.
This is the problem. You assume that if you like something, it's personal choice, but if someone likes something you DISLIKE, it's because it's being fed to them.
I don't know if I'll like or dislike Venom, I've not seen the movie. I'm not sitting here saying he's a suitable Venom PHYSICALLY, because he's not. To me, acting is much more important, and he's not so bad as Vinnie Jones/Juggernaut casting, so if he turns in a great performance, I'll overlook that he isn't an unrealistic mountain of muscle.
It's a fact I don't have low standards. We're discussing me and my standards, therefore, what I say about myself is fact.
I keep explaining to you in detail and in a civil manner, why I'm discussing this with you. If you can't grasp it nor accept it, then fine, but stop all the bs. I've told you why I'm discussing it, you'll either accept it or not.
I've told you I don't care what you think about Venom and my posts prove it. I'm not saying you're an idiot for disliking it, I'm saying I think your REASONS for disliking it are stupid. If they were realistic reasons like, after the movie he was shit and you dissed him, fine.
I didn't say it wasn't important, I said that acting is just MORE important. Which it is, in a movie.
Because Willem Dafoe has the villainous look, and the mask covered it, but that's the risk directors take. They couldn't cast Green Goblin without a mask, people would moan. The old costume would have looked silly, people would moan. The new costume was modern, but people moaned. You can't please everybody, so you have to just do what you want to do with the movie. Sam Raimi has, and he's put out two really good movies with a couple of flaws.
You, because you keep ignoring it, and I'm trying to civilly explain it to you.
Fair enough.
So? That's still discussion. It proves my point. I'm not rushing in here assuming your reasons, I'm asking you in depth about each thing you say, so I can understand it better. The more specific I get, the more nonsense I hear. I'm telling you straight up, adult to adult, I'm only interested in discussing, that's all it is to me. Now you can either be a mature adult and accept that, or you won't.
It doesn't bother me, you don't like it, fine. You're entitled to that, I've said it many times and you just ignore me because you want to avoid the fact that I am being on point with you.
You use condescending winking smileys (A sin in debates), downplaying people's opinions on something unless they have an official source (which you did for months, only to end up wrong).
I called you an idiot over saying it's not Venom, because it factually is Venom. It's nonsense to say it's not, and your reasons for saying it's not are silly. Even forgetting the teaser poster, forget the movie. You claim that unless they are in full costume, they are not their respective characters. That's an idiotic claim.
You're not an idiot for disliking the poster, that would be stupid.
I meant in motion whilst doing Spidey-esque things.
Let's not get too silly. Danny DeVito isn't as bad as Topher Grace, let's not get stupid.
That's one of the worst fanboy comments I've seen. Bakerboy comes up with better shit than that. Well...maybe not, but pretty close.
I don't look like Captain Obvious, I play the role well enough though.
What? Where are you getting this BS? I never said Brock was as big as Juggernaut in the comics. I said he's about as big as Vinnie Jones Juggernaut, and there are bodybuilders bigger than that. Of course he's not comic Juggernaut size.
Read my posts.
And Brock is a slightly unrealistically proportioned human, artist depending.
By definition then, how does one have a stupid face? I'll be waiting.
Yeah, Eddie Brock is Venom. Peter Parker wasn't Venom when he had the symbiote was he? No. The symbiote wasn't called Venom until Brock got it.
Inability to counter, nice one.
I called you an idiot vis-a-vis your post, you said "Shut your stupid face" and then called me a "Moron". Moron could be considered fire/fire, "Stupid face"? Not so much.
Then have consistency to not call it a no bashing forum. You're the only one who's thrown a direct personal insult.
So anyone who swears is therefore very pissed? Bit of odd logic there. You're the one ignoring me carefully explaining to you why we're discussing, in favour of keeping a certain reply to use. Rather than saying "Ok, I get what you mean.".
I don't, you look bad.
This is why you're a walking contradiction. You diss fanboys, yet you are one, proudly.
If anyone was actually saying you were wrong for not liking things, I will actually say THEY are wrong to say that, because that's stupid. I'm not saying you are wrong for disliking it, I'm questioning and exposing your EXPLANATIONS for disliking it. Whether you dislike it forever is no concern to me.
It is the character Venom, yes. Technically, legally, originally.
I haven't been nasty to you...why are you being so melodramatic? By that logic, you care too. I'm sure you don't, I hope you don't.
How many more times am I going to have to civilly explain it to you before you're man enough to just stop going "Lalalalala"?
As you were wrong for assuming it about me.
You don't get the joke do you? Tsk, sorry. I'll have to lower the humour level a bit.
I'll notice it, and yes, it may very well subtract from his ability to intimidate, which may very well be a minus to the performance. Then again, it may not.
If by screwed up you mean "Didn't hire the guy from the actual comic" then yes, it's hard to employ fictional characters.
Topher may still turn in a good role.
I claimed you always nit pick at them, yes. I know you don't hate them.
Trust me, as bad as I think you are, I have encountered worse.
Yeah, and you said I have a stupid face and called me a moron. We're even.
Tough guy throwing PERSONAL, ad hominem attacks on the net. I attacked your idiotic debate, I didn't attack you. Why would I?
Wrong, to you. Not physically alike, to me.
Nah, it's Venom.
So should you, we're alike. Maybe we should be Brock and Parker, eh?
Right, and what other versions are there? All the other different versions created by different artists and writers. Sam Raimi is just doing it in movie form.
See, you love him, I don't. I just think he's cool. I loved the interaction between him and Parker more than I did his physique.
Do you not think that he did that? Oh yeah, you refuse to believe that he couldn't find anyone else suitable.
You refuse to accept it, doesn't mean it isn't true.
Practice what you preach, I'm just giving doses of the medicine you prescribe, Doc.
You called me names. Stop trying to justify your behaviour with this "I attacked your logic" crap.
You insulted me. End of story.
Easy for you to delude yourself into believing I know.
Funny, nobody else noticed that. Maybe because it isn't true
It matters because physicality and acting are important.
Oh I see. People can't be unbiased about their favorite characters. Like Doc Ock being manipulated by his own tentacles, or being married, or turning good at the end. All flaws about the character in the movie I've criticized before.
Yeah, I'm really biased.
You need to read them again.
No I won't, because someone who thinks Ock is muscular in the comics doesn't know wtf they're on about.
Hypocrite.
Again. you seem to be the only one who noticed this.
Both.
Anyone who claims to be a fan of Venom, and doesn't mind his character looking totally different from the norm can hardly be called a Venom fan.
A fit??
That's rich coming from you. Where did I have a fit??? I merely pointed out the misleading name of this thread.
He isn't.
No, you're being ridiculous.
Peter Parker is Spider-Man when he puts on the costume. Bruce Wayne is Batman when he puts on his.
Anyone remember Bill's speech about super heros in Kill Bill 2?? Wise words indeed. These guys don't become their character until they don the costume. Mask and all.
Because they are those superheros when they put on their costumes. Have Peter walking around maskless, and he's hardly Spider-Man. Same as when Brock is not fully covered by the costume, he is not Venom.
The only thing it proves is that you like to make up baseless BS about people to make your weak arguements seem better.
That's right.
When someone says describe Spider-Man's appearance, what do they say?? Or if someone says draw Spider-Man what do they draw??
That's right. Spidey fully costumed.
So do I
Splitting hairs again.
I'll use the same analogy I used above. Venomis Eddie Brock fully covered by the symbiote. That is what Venom looks like. That is the Venom persona image.
I imagine he'd say, "No, it's Peter Parker unmasked"
Keep telling yourself that. I'm sure one day you'll convince yourself that's true
Yeah you do that. Always handy to have extra BS of yours to rip apart.
They OBVIOUSLY didn't?? They started casting in early 2005. The movie started filming in 2006.
They had plenty of time.
They did, up to this point.
Nope, but I've seen the actor.
Yeah, just like you don't remember insulting me.
Selective memory is a nice thing.
Wtf are you on about?? I want Venom to look as much like his comic counterpart as possible.
How is that mental?? What do you want him to look like?? Tight shiny balck spandex with false pointy teeth in his mouth??
And you have nothing say about me. Yet you babble on anyway with you psycho analysis of me.
Hypocrite.
Well if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black.
Oh my god
Are you really as dumb as you sound?? Did you really interpret that as me saying I want a real live venom in the movie??
If he did, his brain must of been on the fritz that day.
Nothing screams Eddie brock like Topher Grace...............NOT!!
It has ZERO to do with acting. The actor has to charm the audience with his performance, and be able to physically look like a character they're supposed to be playing.
Grace, so far, fails on half of that.
You are a sad fan boy.
I was merely pointing out it's not the only difference. Brock is tall. Grace is not.
Seeing as Venom's speech balloons and voice was described as a monstrous voice in the comics, as well as being adapted that way in not just the cartoons, but video games too, then one would expect a symbiotic monster to have a nasty, gruff, voice.
Something Grace doesn't have. But I imagine Venom's voice will be artificially done, or dubbed by someone else.
Unless he supplies the voice, all you'll most likely see is a CGI character. Like Gollum.
Yeah organic webbing is the same basis for comparison
My imagination is just fine.
I just don't let it sink to the levels of anything Hollywood shoves in front of me is good.
__________________
Last edited by Doc Ock on Aug 3rd, 2006 at 03:28 AM
No, I called you an idiot regarding your debate. I didn't intend to insult you, but I can't help if you were insulted.
You admitted it...who's deluded?
He had an English tang, I'm English, I can tell when I hear it.
Exactly. Which is more important?
You admitted you were a fanboy, so I regard you as a fanboy, though I commend and appreciate that you aren't totally biased. Fair point.
I don't, actually. That's just you desperate for another line to retort to.
Some artists have drawn him as clearly having muscle definition.
You are.
I'm unique.
No, you didn't read it. I said, what would be MORE important to you? Both can't be more important.
If you were a director, making a movie, what would be more important to you?
His character? This is where you fail. None of us own a part of him, we read the comics because THEY allow us to by creating these characters. It's their property, they can do with them as they wish, I don't have to like it, and I may not, but it's up to them.
Fantastic Four are my favourite comic, or one of. I will contend that I gave it the worst bashing of any movie.
It's called an exaggeration, son. I recognise you weren't actually having a fit, stop taking things literally, you're too literal.
He is.
They create their suits, their alter-egos. They are one and the same entity, life, person. Their creator thinks of them as such.
Utterly ludicrous. I suppose next you'll say "Captain America isn't Captain America is he has his hood down.".
What makes him Spider-Man? Powers. He doesn't gain them when he puts the suit on.
See above. Powers make the hero, clothes maketh not the man.
So I could put on the costume and be Spider-Man?
If anything, that carries more weight, since Eddie Brock is nothing but a human without the suit, he doesn't have inherent powers. Though it's still a ridiculous claim. He's Venom.
Aha, gotcha. So...for him to be Peter Parker unmasked, there would have to be a Peter Parker masked...right? Because, UNmasked implies an opposite. So that would mean Peter Parker is Spider-Man no matter what.
Why am I arguing with you over if Peter Parker is Spider-Man or not?
Sad, truly sad that you can't show some maturity and move on.
Did you flex muscles while you said that? You couldn't rip me apart if you actually were Venom.
How many movies have you worked on? Or can I ask how long you've studied the movie industry, worked in it?
You're speaking only from a visual standpoint, and I know you know that.
Yeah, what he looks like.
I remember everything I've said. I didn't set out to insult you, you're just easily insulted. You called me a moron, it means nothing, it's a word. Idiot obviously offends you.
Me intending to insult you and you coincidentally being insulted by something I've said are two different things.
I wouldn't know.
He might. From what I hear, he does.
I want him to look like Venom.
Yeah, but that's me saying what you SEEM like, not me telling you what you ARE. I've got all bases covered here, Ock.
And you have a grand total of how many critically and fan-orientated acclaimed comic book to movie adaptations to your name?
1? 2? None?
It has zero to do with acting...? Possibly THE silliest comment ever. We're discussing a movie, but it has zero to do with acting.
Eddie Brock is 6ft 3 inches. Topher Grace if 5ft 11 inches. There's a couple of inches difference.
Maybe it will. Eddie Brock, in the cartoons, speaks like a typical New Yorker. A gruffer version of Moe from The Simpsons.
They GAVE him a power, how is that any better?
You have no choice, this is where we differ. You don't have a choice in whether it does or not. You're the one telling people that they're accepting anything, and it's clear from my debates that all I'm proposing is an open mind, not accept it and shut up.
You went into a big insulting rant. You flew off the handle alright.
I'd love to see the amount of attention to people who's opinions you do care about. They must be smothered with your attention.
Poor them
It's sad that you find logic as warped. But then you've already proven you are incapable of speaking the truth.
Sony are giving you a Venom that looks nothing like his comic counterpart.
To like that is surely lowering your standards, because it's not the actual character's look.
You think disliking the teaser poster because it doesn't show Venom, and pales in comparison to the other villain teasers is stupid??
LOL! Yeah, ok dude.
More important to you, not to me. It's equal to me.
No, people hated the costume because it looked like a Power Rangers costume.
A green cheap plastic look.
Nothing to do with the fact that it covered Dafoe's face. If it was a genuinely cool mask, nobody would have cared how much he wore it.
You and civil don't belong in the same sentence.
Oh yes you are.
You've been making assumptions about me from the get go.
You lecture me on being mature??
Oh the irony here is too rich "idiot".
Btw, if all you're hearing is nonsense, then why are you bothering?? Seriously, you keep claiming you're interested in discussion. But if all you're getting is nonsense as you so ridiculously claim, why are you bothering??
Only an "idiot" would continue a nonsense discussion.
You're not being on point with anything.
You're just beating the same dead horse with a stick. It bothers you that I disliked the teaser.
Let it go. My opinion and reasons will not change.
Oh you find that a sin??
Too bad
Ah, going back into the past again. Whatever helps you here. God knows you need every nugget of help you can get
You called me an idiot because you're a troll. If you disagreed you could have just said so politely without resorting to name calling.
But that's not in a troll's nature.
You find my reasons silly?? I find your arguements silly, weak and desperate.
So cest la vie.
Right, so if Peter Parker went swinging around costumeless or just his Spidey trousers on, that would consitiute an image of Spider-Man??
No.
Well I'll be damned, a sentence of sense from you at last.
Danny DeVito = short fat guy
Topher Grace = meek skinny guy.
Whatever way you cut it, either one is a bad choice for Brock. Topher may be around the right age, but that's all he's got against Danny.
Indeed you do.
Brock is tall, built, intimidating guy. Every artist draws a character out of proportion at some time or another.
It doesn't excuse casting against type.
__________________
Last edited by Doc Ock on Aug 3rd, 2006 at 04:01 AM
If you found it insulting, that's your problem. I attacked your debate.
Seriously, this is a genuine request. Either accept what I've told you, or stop dwelling on it.
I'm incapable of speaking what you want to hear, to your liking, yes. I'm not Silverstein.
Ahh, so now Brock IS Venom, finally coming to your senses. I knew you'd slip into that.
I said I could handle it if he turned in a brilliant performance, I never said I thought it was great.
No, I think your reasons for disliking it are stupid. You can dislike what you want.
Eli Roth thinks the same. The last movie he churned out was Hostel.
I was speaking for me.
I've been asking you civilly on said matter, you childishly ignore.
Is this how you debate? One person says something, rather than try to A) Prove wrong or B) Admit you're wrong, you just say the opposite?
I've been playing the cards you deal.
Wasn't a lecture, was a piece of advise/request.
Why are you? You claim the same.
Truth be told, it is idiotic of me to give someone like you as much time as I have, but I have faith that sooner or later you'll remove the defensive cap and explain things to me sensibly, rather than nervously.
Why are you attempting to tell me what I'm bothered by? I told you I don't care that you don't like it, that means it's a fact. An undeniable truth.
I've said SO many times that I am not trying to change them. Why are you ignoring what I say? I'm asking you seriously now, me to you.
You keep saying things in ignorance of me saying I don't believe them, so why? What is your reason for doing so?
If you can't back yourself up with nothing more than text and evidence, you can't back yourself up credibly.
All you're doing right now is just retorting to my lines, granted I'm doing the same, but this is why it proves you are desperate.
You who are without manners, now request them? I thought you were made of harder materials.
I'm not a troll, by the definition of the term.
You're the one retorting to have something to say. When was the last time you replied to me regarding the movie?
But it would factually be Spider-Man.
Been saying that all along, Ock.
Eddie Brock is tall and bulky. Topher is tall and average (or he will be).
Danny DeVito is short and fat. Totally different.
Oh come on, you're sitting there telling me that Danny DeVito is as credible a casting choice for Eddie Brock as Topher Grace.
Try catching the subliminals at any point.
Then you realise Venom could never be exactly like the comics?
Ok, I gotta go to bed soon, so I'll wrap this up as we're going in circles here. And it's pissing people off. I see rogue has also expressed annoyance at our debate.
-First off, Alpha Centauri, you are a troll. And a pathetic one too. "I called you an idiot but I didn't intend for you to be insulted."
LOL! I must remember that one next time I see someone insulting someone else. Oh he didn't mean for it to insult you
-Second, that is not a pic of Venom. That is a transformation pic of Brock being engulfed by the symbiote. Venom is the monster he becomes when fully covered by the symbiote. You can try and twist with all your little insignificant technicalities. It's not Venom.
-Topher Grace, is not in any way,shape or form physically suitable for Brock. He can act his ass off for all I care, but for ME, the character has to look like he should as well as act as he should, just like the other villains did. Both are equally important to me. Even if I was a director. Otherwise you might as well hire anyone you like. I remember Sam saying he wanted to stay true to look of the characters when he started these movies. Why did that falter with Venom?? Because he doesn't like him.
-You find the fact that I dislike this poster because it doesn't showcase a proper pic of Venom stupid?? Good for you. I found your reasons for disliking my reasons weak and stupid. Cest la vie.
-Next time you encounter someone who's reasons or opinions you dislike, I know it will be hard, but try not to call them any names. Just try it. As a novelty. A break from the norm.
You could have let it roll off your back and call me an idiot back if you wanted to fight fire with fire, you didn't. You got insulted and threw back a childish PERSONAL insult.
Yes, it is Venom.
I knew that if I made you run in enough circles I could catch you out.
The funny thing is, you previously said "It's not Venom, it's Brock becoming Venom, Brock is not Venom.". Then you said they cast BROCK wrong. So if Brock is not Venom (which he is), why are you saying things like "Why did that falter with Venom, he doesn't look like him?". I thought you were discussing Brock, who to you, is not Venom? Who, ironically, you said looked really good from what you've seen.
Checkmate on that little number. You know Brock = Venom as much as I do, but you tried weaseling out so often than you ended up chasing your tail and coming back on yourself.
Typical childish response with nothing to back it up.
To this day I've never dissed anyone's face. Debates? Yes. Faces? No.
Topher looks great for the Venom part because i always wanted another tiny/skinny freak to play Venom instead of a muscle massed Eddie just like old Pete.
Does anybody realize that this is not a teaser poster, ffs? It's an internet wallpaper (produced by Marvel, by the way) to instill excitement in the fans of the movies.
It wasn't meant to be this great unveiling of Venom. Give it up.
Doc Ock, AC, I only hope I have to say this once. Whatever the issue is, end it now, at this very post. If need be, take it to the pm, but don't bring it here.
Registered: Aug 2004
Location: I'm not giving my name to a machine
Tony Stark is Ironman. T'Challa is Black Panther. Jack is Tyler Durden. Peter Parker is Spiderman. They are these personas with or without the costumes.
Except for "Jack" who was only Tyler when he was hallucinating or asleep. But I'm not supposed to talk about that.
__________________ Originally posted by -Pr- a great big penis.
Thats kinda alot to scan, bud (I know, seeing as I own them). You should just go out and buy the issues. I've got some other pictures of Ann Weying on my site. Check 'em out:
__________________
"If you desire one thing for so long, it's a given that you'll
miss other things along the way. That's how it is... that's
life" - Godo (Berserk)
Aug 3rd, 2006 02:45 AM
simply, awesome
