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Is Secret Wars Beyonder the most powerful character ever created by Marvel?
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unknowable
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(1)
I desire to... understand
In my realm, I am all ! But here is multiplicity... here is diversity... here is incompleteness which I do not understand ! I desire to understand !
...
(2)
In my universe, I was all ! Here there is multiplicity... diversity... incompleteness ! Why ?
The multiplicity and disunity of this universe is confusing !
...
(3)
"In my realm, I was all, the entirety of my own universe ! I knew only of my own oneness --
"I decided that, even more than before, I desired to understand !
"Therefore, days of your time ago, I came to Earth to walk among those here !
With just a thought I subject all who live to my will without resistance, without a doubt... without exception !
Why should I limit my control to humans and other higher life-forms ? I can bring even the bacteria and viruses under my control !
And why stop there ? Even inanimate matter can be controlled ! How simple to seize control of every molecule, every atom, every particle of substance in the world !
Now... everything is mine !
I own everything, I rule everything, I control everything -- virtually, every particle of matter and erg of energy on this planet -- ! And yet I am uncontent !
Conquering the world, I found, did not bring an end to desire, but instead caused a greater sense of unfulfillment -- of incompleteness ! Possessions and power do not bring fulfillment !
...
(4)
I'm beginning to understand the nature of desire, which seems to be the basis of most of the activity going on in this universe !
"I come from another universe, beyond yours! There I was all, the entirety of existence! I knew of nothing except myself...
"Eventually I came here and took human form, that I might come to experience and understand the way of things here!
I have learned much in my few days here! Today, I learned of something called love! I would like to experience it!
All at once, you are but a tiny speck of protoplasm, an infinitesimal mote in the whole of this universe -- and yet, inside, in the essence of your being, you are more, it seems, than the universe itself !
I am from beyond ! I have power far greater than the sum of all power in existence in the universe...
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(5)
I come from another universe...
I was alone there ! The idea of anything else existing never even occurred to me --
All of the more sophisticated races in the universe are fully aware of my presence here ! I'm the most powerful being in existence !
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(6)
As the univers goes along, there is a constant struggle taking place between life and death !
Ultimately, either all things will die and the universe will reach total entropy, or all the inhabitants of the universe will evolve into godlike, immortal beings and death will be vanquished !
I'm siding with the forces of life !
I'm still uncertain about all this ? I don't know yet exactly what my role is in the fight for life !
I'm bigger than the multiverse, and more powerful than all of the forces in it, of every kind, combined !
As long as I'm here, the "way" of the multiverse is my way !
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(7)
What am i, that entire armies attack me, though I am simply sitting and thinking ? Am I so monstrous -- ?
Maybe my true role is to teach all the others beings in existence what their true roles are !
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(8)
I'm so angry... that I want to destroy all existence !
Since I am the sum of everything beyond, without me, it's nothing ! It's not even a place, really !
Nothing is complete here ! No one thing is everything -- Not even me as long as there are other thing !
I can eliminate everything but me ! Then, I'll be the only thing -- ! I'll be all there is -- ! Complete, happy, fulfilled -- !
No force in existence could possibly destroy me without my consent.
Well, It's over now ! I'm going to destroy all existence right now !
Everything is mine if I choose ! And whatever doesn't please me is history !
...
(9)
I came from a realm beyond the multiverse !
The trouble with being omnipotent is that reality isn't real to me! Everything is what I say it is!
My imagination and reality are virtually indistinguishable! All existence, except me, might as well be a figment of my imagination!
I know desire, because I'm incomplete --
Can I erase my own mind ? And if I do, what am I then ? Dead ?
I've taken human shape, but I've never truly become mortal ! I'm going to do it !
What a rush ! It was awesome... terrifying... exhilarating !
I'm not just an ordinary mortal ! I still have all my memories from before !
All the mighty of this multiverse fear me !
The trick is to become mortal, and yet also retain my power -- ! To have a finite element -- humanity -- inside my otherwise omnipotent self !
Finally! I always had omnipotence -- ! At last I'll have humanity too !

Old Post Jan 6th, 2006 04:25 AM
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(9)
I came from a realm beyond the multiverse !
The trouble with being omnipotent is that reality isn't real to me! Everything is what I say it is!
My imagination and reality are virtually indistinguishable! All existence, except me, might as well be a figment of my imagination!
I know desire, because I'm incomplete --
Can I erase my own mind ? And if I do, what am I then ? Dead ?
I've taken human shape, but I've never truly become mortal ! I'm going to do it !
What a rush ! It was awesome... terrifying... exhilarating !
I'm not just an ordinary mortal ! I still have all my memories from before !
All the mighty of this multiverse fear me !
The trick is to become mortal, and yet also retain my power -- ! To have a finite element -- humanity -- inside my otherwise omnipotent self !
Finally! I always had omnipotence -- ! At last I'll have humanity too ! [/B][/QUOTE]

Doesn't this sound like a ONE Above All speaking?
What commands more respect than this speech?

Old Post Jan 6th, 2006 04:27 AM
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unknowable
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I wouldn't be surprised if Secret Wars Beyonder was TOAA or atleast an equal of many equals that rule countless multi-verses throughout the omni-verse.
This is speculation ofcourse but I still think retcon Beyonder was probably not more powerful than TOAA but definately not less either.

Old Post Jan 6th, 2006 04:31 AM
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Digi
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Hell, Dr. Doom steals his power, even before the retcon. Anything that can be punked by Dr. Doom (even super-charged by Galactus' world-ship) isn't on LT level.

His best feat that I know of, even pre retcon, was destroying a galaxy and punking a weakened version (by Reed Richards' admission) of Galactus.

Does THOTU count? Still, Beyonder was pretty uber pre-retcon, and is certainly darn close to LT, but still not LT level in my opinion. And since I've never seen credible evidence that the "God" TOAA actually exists (even Thanos says he didn't find a "god" when he destroys the universe) I'd have to put those two 1 and 2. I wish the retcon hadn't happened though...classic Beyonder rocked.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2006 05:03 AM
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The problem with those quotes is that a lot of it is speculation on the part of the Beyonder. He doesn't understand enough of anything to really be in a position to say whether or not he's that powerful.

On one hand, he's talking about how all reality is his, but on the other, his control only stretches within the confines of planet earth. He's never been able to go beyond that. TOAA does....TOAA stretches across the omniverse as a single entity, which is why he knows all and sees all. If Beyonder were as powerful as TOAA, he wouldn't have that childlike confusion that he does. He'd also exercise universal spanning power, but again, the height of his reality-altering power is planetary at most, and the height of his destructive power is galactic at most. That's actually roughly Modern Cosmic Cube level.

By comparison, Thanos with the IG was able to simultaneously affect the entire universe, blinking out half of all life. Beyonder just talked about it, and it's not unreasonable to assume that he just talked about and didn't do it because he *couldn't*...he just thought he could.

Don't be fooled by the concept of someone being a universe. Mephisto is said to be "all" in his own realm, which some have described as also being a universe. Alternately, the Beyonder is said to come from the Beyond realm, which may, as a concept, be basically the same as Asgard, or Hel or any number of othe realms that are under the total control of a single being. It's not as impressive as it sounds.

Also, remember, if he could destroy the universe, he never would have needed Rachael to destroy the M'Kraan Crystal, right? Why did he need to destroy the M'Kraan Crystal? Because he wanted to destroy the universe and didn't have the power to do it himself. Why did he need Rachel to destroy it? Because he lacked the wisdom, knowledge and capacity to destroy it himself. Why was he overwhelmed by the true depth of the universe and collapsed when Rachel showed it to him? Because his understanding of the true nature of the universe was beyond his capacity to understand.

Those aren't qualities consistent with TOAA.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2006 05:06 AM
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golem370
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Beyonder

What was the being known as the Beyonder?

The Beyonder was nothing more than an incomplete Cosmic Cube. The other half of his powers went into Owen Reece, who became the villain Molecule Man.

The Cosmic Cube known as Beyonder has also used the aliases of Kosmos, Cosmos and Maker.

How powerful is the Beyonder?

Not very at all, at least from the viewpoint of the cosmic entities. Beyonder deluded himself with his own powers, the ones that are usually used to grant wishes to the wielders of the Cubes. To the Beyonder, he thought he had destroyed the various Celestial entities he encountered, but in truth, they were all nothing more than illusions manifested by his own powers.

What happened to him?

Eventually the Beyonder and Molecule Man united into one being after learning the truth from the two evolved Cosmic Cubes, Kubik and Shaper of Worlds, during the Secret Wars III and became a new entity, Kosmos, who is now learning to use her powers with the help of an evolved Cosmic Cube named Kubik. Recently Kosmos has changed and become the Maker, who is less of a coherent being with the power of an entity trapped in a mortal body, apparently having suffered some sort of mental trauma and amnesia after her travels with Kubi


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2006 05:10 AM
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Golem, for .... sake, stom copying from that Marvel Cosmic site would ya ??


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2006 08:06 AM
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unknowable
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Yea Golem we know all that crap, The thread is about secret wars Beyonder who wasn't at the time whitewashed by marvel into a cosmic cube.
When he killed Death, he killed Death, he then brought her back to life, and so on and so on. Stick to the topic my friends..

Old Post Jan 6th, 2006 10:13 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by demigawd
The problem with those quotes is that a lot of it is speculation on the part of the Beyonder. He doesn't understand enough of anything to really be in a position to say whether or not he's that powerful.

On one hand, he's talking about how all reality is his, but on the other, his control only stretches within the confines of planet earth. He's never been able to go beyond that. TOAA does....TOAA stretches across the omniverse as a single entity, which is why he knows all and sees all. If Beyonder were as powerful as TOAA, he wouldn't have that childlike confusion that he does. He'd also exercise universal spanning power, but again, the height of his reality-altering power is planetary at most, and the height of his destructive power is galactic at most. That's actually roughly Modern Cosmic Cube level.

.


My man there's no way retcon Beyonder was only galactic or even more demeaning global,

every Official Marvel Universe bio series since the dawn of retcon Beyonder, has clearly stated that Beyonder was the Most Powerful Being EVER to exist in this universe(616). Now if that's a fact then obviously he was able to affect atleast a universal scale, though my theory is he was beyond even that because there have been other characters within this universe that have threatened the existence of this universe that where not as powerful as retcon Beyonder.

Old Post Jan 6th, 2006 10:31 AM
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GalacticStorm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by demigawd
Not that TOAA. THE TOAA. It's a little confusing, I know, so we always have to explain this every so often.

There's The One Above All, who is the leader (but not the most powerful) of the Celestials. Nobody talks about him very often.

THEN there's THE One Above All, which is who Odin was talking about when referring to the Creator....God. They're both called the One Above All, which is a little stupid, but they're very different people.


Who says TOAA is God. We've had a debate about that recently, theres no evidence around to support the fact that LT works for the supreme being. All that was said in Infinity Watch is that LT serves forces above the IG or Eternity. From that fans coined the term TOAA and people said LT served god based on that. Not good enough.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2006 01:51 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by unknowable
My man there's no way retcon Beyonder was only galactic or even more demeaning global,

every Official Marvel Universe bio series since the dawn of retcon Beyonder, has clearly stated that Beyonder was the Most Powerful Being EVER to exist in this universe(616). Now if that's a fact then obviously he was able to affect atleast a universal scale, though my theory is he was beyond even that because there have been other characters within this universe that have threatened the existence of this universe that where not as powerful as retcon Beyonder.


The bios say he was quite possibly the most powerful being to ever exist in this universe.

Was he more powerful than LT? Yep cos it was stated on panel.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2006 01:54 PM
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How do they even explain his retcon?
He was nutzo and it was in his head, or what?


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2006 01:57 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
How do they even explain his retcon?
He was nutzo and it was in his head, or what?


The cosmic beings were playing along with him for their own unexplained reasons lol.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2006 02:01 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The cosmic beings were playing along with him for their own unexplained reasons lol.
LOL.

Old Post Jan 6th, 2006 02:02 PM
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olympian
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At the time he was created he was. It was later retconned to fit with the rest of the cosmics hierarquy.

Old Post Jan 6th, 2006 05:09 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by unknowable
My man there's no way retcon Beyonder was only galactic or even more demeaning global,

every Official Marvel Universe bio series since the dawn of retcon Beyonder, has clearly stated that Beyonder was the Most Powerful Being EVER to exist in this universe(616). Now if that's a fact then obviously he was able to affect atleast a universal scale, though my theory is he was beyond even that because there have been other characters within this universe that have threatened the existence of this universe that where not as powerful as retcon Beyonder.


I'm going by feats and feats alone. And by feats, Beyonder hasn't gone beyond global in reality control and not beyond galactic in power destruction. I don't doubt, however, that he was meant to be more powerful than Eternity, Galactus and even LT when Secret Wars came out, but he's still faaaaar below TOAA if he specifically needed someone else to destroy the universe for him because he was unable to do it. Would GOD be unable to destroy the universe of his own power? Of course not. That automatically puts Beyonder below TOAA.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Who says TOAA is God. We've had a debate about that recently, theres no evidence around to support the fact that LT works for the supreme being. All that was said in Infinity Watch is that LT serves forces above the IG or Eternity. From that fans coined the term TOAA and people said LT served god based on that. Not good enough.


Moot point. "The One Above All" was actually a term coined by Odin, and Odin was very specifically referring to the creator. The whole "LT's boss" thing is meaningless in this context - TOAA is the term for God, whether LT works specifically for him or not.


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Old Post Jan 7th, 2006 01:40 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by demigawd


Moot point. "The One Above All" was actually a term coined by Odin, and Odin was very specifically referring to the creator. The whole "LT's boss" thing is meaningless in this context - TOAA is the term for God, whether LT works specifically for him or not.


Thats cool. So there is actually a being called TOAA. Remains to be seen whether the being Odin was referring to is the actual supreme being. Have you an issue number? I'll post some scans within the hour.

Either way we're not disagreeing on the point that LT isnt conclusively Gods servant going just by his role and the vague comment made in Infinity Watch. smile


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Old Post Jan 7th, 2006 02:08 AM
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See, the thing is, even at his most powerful, the Beyonder was stupid.

Seriously, he was nearly retarded. I think I would use my powers to LEARN something ASAP.

Whereas one would imagine TOAA to be quite wise indeed.

As far as Doom defeating The Beyonder or the Living Tribunal or whatever... Doom can do it. Don't doubt it for a moment. He can take anybody. Cuz he's Doom.


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Old Post Jan 7th, 2006 02:15 AM
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YO^ wize wordz. You could be god if you wanted too.


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Old Post Jan 7th, 2006 02:18 AM
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Re: Is Secret Wars Beyonder the most powerful character ever created by Marvel?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by unknowable
I'm believe he was more powerful than Living Tribunal but I wonder about TOAA.



Thanos in “The End”, having HOTU, is by far to this date the Single most powerful being in the Marvel History. Its non-canon but to this point their hasn’t been anyone that has shown as much as Thanos has.


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Old Post Jan 7th, 2006 02:30 AM
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