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Home » Comic Book Forums » Comic Book 'Versus' Forum » Talisman vs. Spectre

Talisman vs. Spectre
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-K-M-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mider
she cant say she is the wrath of the presance though, and you dont know if she can controll him


Seriously is no one even reading what I'm saying? I've said that mutliple times, but she has been shown to control high skyfather gods like they were nothing. He is the Spirit of Vengeance and she is the Binder of Spirits.


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Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 09:03 PM
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Citizen V.
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I understand your logic, its pretty simple....
he is a spirit
she controls spirits
she controls him
she wins

Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 09:10 PM
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Juntai
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Spectre is above the Gods that power her. He is the Wrath of the Divine being, the one who created the very idea of creation..

She -may- be able to manipulate the host soul... for a time, and then as a defensive mechanism, The Wrath aspect would grow tired it and explode from the host subconscious, and then it's all over.

But no one has shown to ever be able to simply take control of Spectre, not gods, not Gods, and not the guys higher than them. If it was possible to simply control the Wrath of God, things like Day of Judgment and Day of Vengeance wouldn't happen.


Like I said though, the whole arguement is really reaching, as it relies entirely on something that has never been shown as possible, why nearly ANYTHING that Spectre can do, kills her outright. Hell, he can simply take her soul to heaven, or hell, or make it suffer a reality worse than hell.

It's an infinitude of possible wins for Spectre versus one off the wall shot in the dark.


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Last edited by Juntai on Apr 9th, 2006 at 09:15 PM

Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 09:12 PM
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-K-M-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
Spectre is above the Gods that power her. He is the Wrath of the Divine being, the one who created the very idea of creation..

She -may- be able to manipulate the host soul... for a time, and then as a defensive mechanism, The Wrath aspect would grow tired it and explode from the host subconscious, and then it's all over.

But no one has shown to ever be able to simply take control of Spectre, not gods, not Gods, and not the guys higher than them. If it was possible to simply control the Wrath of God, things like Day of Judgment and Day of Vengeance wouldn't happen.


How do you know that? What are the Gods that empower her?

Maybe, but that's what this debate is about.

Not really, because out of all the magic users there none of them command all the spirits or the Binder of Spirits. She is the avatar for the Gods, which gods....was never stated. For all we know it could be all of the Gods.


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Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 09:17 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
Like I said though, the whole arguement is really reaching, as it relies entirely on something that has never been shown as possible, why nearly ANYTHING that Spectre can do, kills her outright. Hell, he can simply take her soul to heaven, or hell, or make it suffer a reality worse than hell.

It's an infinitude of possible wins for Spectre versus one off the wall shot in the dark.


Yes Spectre has been shown to be manipulated and there is no one in the DC universe with Talisman's power set. He is far from being manipulated as Day of Vegeance showed. Nope, people tried that before and they couldn't.

Yes, if she doesn't control him then yes he would win. As I said


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Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 09:20 PM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by King_Mungi
How do you know that? What are the Gods that empower her?

Maybe, but that's what this debate is about.

Not really, because out of all the magic users there none of them command all the spirits or the Binder of Spirits. She is the avatar for the Gods, which gods....was never stated. For all we know it could be all of the Gods.
It doesn't matter which, and could be all of them...but all of the Gods are below Spectre. What is it you don't understand about that?

It is also Spectre's job to deal with souls. In fact, he's been shown as capable of leading every soul in every time and plane of existance at the same time. Even the very fabric of existance has been shown as his plaything.

It's just plain dumb to believe that a lowly Earth mystic is going to somehow not only tame but practice control over The Wrath of God. If it were really that easy, it would be done each time he steps out of hand.

Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 09:24 PM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Yes Spectre has been shown to be manipulated and there is no one in the DC universe with Talisman's power set. He is far from being manipulated as Day of Vegeance showed. Nope, people tried that before and they couldn't.

Yes, if she doesn't control him then yes he would win. As I said
The Wrath was shown as being able to be confused, but The Wrath is just a perception of a way God works anyways.

Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 09:27 PM
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-K-M-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
It doesn't matter which, and could be all of them...but all of the Gods are below Spectre. What is it you don't understand about that?

It is also Spectre's job to deal with souls. In fact, he's been shown as capable of leading every soul in every time and plane of existance at the same time. Even the very fabric of existance has been shown as his plaything.

It's just plain dumb to believe that a lowly Earth mystic is going to somehow not only tame but practice control over The Wrath of God. If it were really that easy, it would be done each time he steps out of hand.


All the gods are below Spectre? doubtful, since if it is all of the Gods than TOAA is included with it.

That's nice, but as I have said several times she is the Binder of Spirits. Him leading spirits doesn't make him not able to be under the control of Talisman who controls all spirits. So? yes it has been shown to be his plaything that doesn't prove he can't be manipulated. As I have said he is stronger than her.

Was it dumb that a lowly mortal stole all of his magical powers? [Black Alice]. No, because there is no one in the DC universe or anyone else in the Marvel universe that has her powerset. So no they couldn't do it since there is only one Talisman.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
The Wrath was shown as being able to be confused, but The Wrath is just a perception of a way God works anyways.


Correct, but he can still be manipulated. Like in Day of Vengeance he didn't have the word backing him he was significantly weaker.


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Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 09:33 PM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by King_Mungi
All the gods are below Spectre? doubtful, since if it is all of the Gods than TOAA is included with it.

That's nice, but as I have said several times she is the Binder of Spirits. Him leading spirits doesn't make him not able to be under the control of Talisman who controls all spirits. So? yes it has been shown to be his plaything that doesn't prove he can't be manipulated. As I have said he is stronger than her.

Was it dumb that a lowly mortal stole all of his magical powers? [Black Alice]. No, because there is no one in the DC universe or anyone else in the Marvel universe that has her powerset. So no they couldn't do it since there is only one Talisman.



Correct, but he can still be manipulated. Like in Day of Vengeance he didn't have the word backing him he was significantly weaker.
What does her powerset mean when he dissapears, kills the gods that power her, then writes her out of the universe entirely?

Dude, you're really seriously truly reaching believing an Earth mystic can take control of The Wrath of God.

Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 09:38 PM
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Mider
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he wasnt very much weaker and he can still summon more power he just has to call upon it, tell us one time where he was controlled

Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 09:39 PM
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Juntai
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You keep using Day of Vengeance of a sidenote.

Who in Day of Vengeance defeated Spectre?
Exactly.
God did. And nothing short of.
lol.


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Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 09:39 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
What does her powerset mean when he dissapears, kills the gods that power her, then writes her out of the universe entirely?

Dude, you're really seriously truly reaching believing an Earth mystic can take control of The Wrath of God.


Remember IF she can control him, she can do it instantly. It's not like a charge up attack, she thinks and the spirits obeys her/

Not really, when Black Alice a Earth human girl took ALL of Spectre's power.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mider
he wasnt very much weaker and he can still summon more power he just has to call upon it, tell us one time where he was controlled


Which he never did, even Nabu made the comment Luther was using him to steal all the magic "but you've devoured so much raw magic over the past days you should have been able to crush me in an instant. Ask yourself--where did all that magic you captured actually go?"

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
You keep using Day of Vengeance of a sidenote.

Who in Day of Vengeance defeated Spectre?
Exactly.
God did. And nothing short of.
lol.


Black Alice temporally did as well as Captain Marvel and the ShadowPack chased Spectre off twice. Once again no one in the DC universe has Talisman's powerset.


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Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 09:44 PM
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snoopdogg
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No offense King but it's a little late for a April fools day joke.


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Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 10:28 PM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Remember IF she can control him, she can do it instantly. It's not like a charge up attack, she thinks and the spirits obeys her/

Not really, when Black Alice a Earth human girl took ALL of Spectre's power.



Which he never did, even Nabu made the comment Luther was using him to steal all the magic "but you've devoured so much raw magic over the past days you should have been able to crush me in an instant. Ask yourself--where did all that magic you captured actually go?"



Black Alice temporally did as well as Captain Marvel and the ShadowPack chased Spectre off twice. Once again no one in the DC universe has Talisman's powerset.
No, those people held him off momentarily, they didn't stop him. He completed everything he set out to do. God had to stop him and attach him to another human soul. He rampaged until that moment.

She didn't take Spectre's power, Spectre IS power. She temporarily became the host of The Spectre, and The Wrath was somehow left out of the equation. But we've seen it exist seperately before, it's nothing new. It's just a physically manifested perception anyways.

Needless to say the details of Black Alice's power are yet to be revealed, perhaps later in The Shadowpact series. But it's clear that it's pretty plot influenced, she took Zatanna's ability to speak backwards completely rather than just her majicks. When she took Dr Fate's abilities, all of the mantle, helm and everything appeared on her as well. And Dr Fate couldn't summon them.


The quickness of how fast Talisman can summon the power is irrelivent. Time is not linear to Spectre.


And you're still reaching for straws.
This is Gods Wrath vs Earth mystic.

Do you see the difference?

Anything she could do, he can do an infinitude better.
"You'll find that I have any power I want."

Spectre wins.

Last edited by Juntai on Apr 9th, 2006 at 10:32 PM

Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 10:29 PM
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Mider
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alice only took his power for a time as in not even 30 minutes like she usually can only a few seconds cause it was to much for her, so thats not that big a feat, and who won the battle between spectre and nabu?

Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 10:33 PM
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the thing is he is so above every being that powers her that she wouldn't be able to control him. Skyfathers are below elder gods arent they? well thats why she could control them. Spectre is above elder gods,abstracts,etc.


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Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 10:36 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by snoopdogg
No offense King but it's a little late for a April fools day joke.


It's not.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
No, those people held him off momentarily, they didn't stop him. He completed everything he set out to do. God had to stop him and attach him to another human soul. He rampaged until that moment.

She didn't take Spectre's power, Spectre IS power. She temporarily became the host of The Spectre, and The Wrath was somehow left out of the equation. But we've seen it exist seperately before, it's nothing new. It's just a physically manifested perception anyways.

Needless to say the details of Black Alice's power are yet to be revealed, perhaps later in The Shadowpact series. But it's clear that it's pretty plot influenced, she took Zatanna's ability to speak backwards completely rather than just her majicks. When she took Dr Fate's abilities, all of the mantle, helm and everything appeared on her as well. And Dr Fate couldn't summon them.




The quickness of how fast Talisman can summon the power is irrelivent. Time is not linear to Spectre.


And you're still reaching for straws.
This is Gods Wrath vs Earth mystic.

Do you see the difference?

Anything she could do, he can do an infinitude better.
"You'll find that I have any power I want."

Spectre wins.




Yes mortals held off the Spectre, and no he didn't. He was severly weakened even needed Eclipso to help him escape "Still alive, my love? Good. Get up now. If you've any energy left, you need to fly both of us away from here. Quickly before they spot us". He even says later, "they nearly destroyed me" and had to stop to fully recover. The second time he fled "Eclipso, when my powers returns, I plan to be far away from here--where they won't be able to do this to me again. Hold them here. Keep them from following me."

the difference? "My power! It's gone!", Black Alice comments "It's not your power anymore Spectre! It's mine! I'm the Divine Engine of Vengeance now!" So how is that any different with her taking Spectre's power as she has taken Zantanna's, Nabu's and Captain Marvel's powers as well. As Spectre said "Without mu power nothing's left but empty spirit" and Enchantress replies "He's basically a memory--a lingering afterimage. My guess is he'll fade to nothingness in a short time, as long as he doesn't get his powers back first"

She steals powers, and then later Dr.Fate began to train her with her powers that's why she is so skilled now. She is still a mortal and she still stole his powers.

Sure it is, even against the Shadowpact and various others he didn't just blink them out of existance. He even admited he didn't have the power to destroy the Phantom Stranger or Nabu/Dr,Fate [first fight]

No, Gods Wrath vs. Gods avatar and the Binder of Spirits

Do YOU see the difference?


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Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 10:49 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mider
alice only took his power for a time as in not even 30 minutes like she usually can only a few seconds cause it was to much for her, so thats not that big a feat, and who won the battle between spectre and nabu?


Not a big feat? Are you nuts, she took God's wraith and Nabu wanted him to beat him.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Superherovandal
the thing is he is so above every being that powers her that she wouldn't be able to control him. Skyfathers are below elder gods arent they? well thats why she could control them. Spectre is above elder gods,abstracts,etc.


Alright who are the gods that power her then? People keep claiming they know so who are they?


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Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 10:50 PM
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Why is it so hard to imagine someone having the correct powerset to take Spectre?


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Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 10:51 PM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Not a big feat? Are you nuts, she took God's wraith and Nabu wanted him to beat him.



Alright who are the gods that power her then? People keep claiming they know so who are they?
Nabu didn't have a choice, he knew he was going to lose, and he knew it was still the only way, and he fought back anyways. And lost just as predicted.



It doesn't matter who it is. Spectre is a manifestation of Gods will, all creations are below it. All beings in the universe recognize Spectre as the the highest calibre of character. There's a lot of characters that can control and manipulate souls, yet for all their power, they weren't there to stop Spectre, who in Day of Vengance alone slaughtered schools of magic, 700 some off mages in the first issue alone, then went on defeat various lords of order and chaos.. and finally had to be stopped by God.

Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 10:59 PM
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