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Talisman vs. Spectre
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Thunderstrike
Why is it so hard to imagine someone having the correct powerset to take Spectre?
Why is it so hard to imagine that he can write her existance out of the universe entirely? It's not even a battle, this is just him reaching for straws.

Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 11:00 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
Nabu didn't have a choice, he knew he was going to lose, and he knew it was still the only way, and he fought back anyways. And lost just as predicted.

It doesn't matter who it is. Spectre is a manifestation of Gods will, all creations are below it. All beings in the universe recognize Spectre as the the highest calibre of character. There's a lot of characters that can control and manipulate souls, yet for all their power, they weren't there to stop Spectre, who in Day of Vengance alone slaughtered schools of magic, 700 some off mages in the first issue alone, then went on defeat various lords of order and chaos.. and finally had to be stopped by God.


No he didn't, and it was his plan to lose. He even stated that. He wanted the Age of Magic to end so God would finally take notice. With all the magic being destroyed all the magic users were being weakened and wern't at their full power, but Nabu wanted Spectre to kill him.

Yes he is, I never stated he wasn't. However, he has been shown to be defeated and his powers stolen even by mortals. Also there are some who can control souls, but Talisman controls all spirits and is the choosen one. The Gods avatar, once again as I have stated before there is NO one like her in the DC univerese. Plus not all the magic users he killed were on Dr.Strange's level...far from it actually.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
Why is it so hard to imagine that he can write her existance out of the universe entirely? It's not even a battle, this is just him reaching for straws.


Yes in a straight up fight she LOOSES, the whole debate is can she control him?. No it isn't reaching for straws at all


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Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 11:12 PM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by King_Mungi
No he didn't, and it was his plan to lose. He even stated that. He wanted the Age of Magic to end so God would finally take notice. With all the magic being destroyed all the magic users were being weakened and wern't at their full power, but Nabu wanted Spectre to kill him.

Yes he is, I never stated he wasn't. However, he has been shown to be defeated and his powers stolen even by mortals. Also there are some who can control souls, but Talisman controls all spirits and is the choosen one. The Gods avatar, once again as I have stated before there is NO one like her in the DC univerese. Plus not all the magic users he killed were on Dr.Strange's level...far from it actually.



Yes in a straight up fight she LOOSES, the whole debate is can she control him?. No it isn't reaching for straws at all

Forum rules state characters are at their optimum when they fight. At optimum, Spectre destroys pretty much anyone and anything.

You're claiming a girl, through another gods jurisdiction is going to control the spirit of The Spectre. However, The Spectre is not a spirit, the HOST is.

All Black Alice did was temporarily BECOME the Spectre, and only for a handful of moments. What was left, described as an 'afterimage' in the comic was what is known as THE WRATH, to Spectre readers.... which is just a perception. That's all it is. It's a way that the universe interprets gods' uncontrolled anger. She was tapping The Spectre's power, which includes the ability to control and manipulate and destroy and guide any and all souls, yet all her power [which she only maintained for a total of what, 4 sentences?] she could do nothing to affect it. Talisman could not either, because it's not a soul, it's not even actually real, it's just a perception.

The only soul that COULD be argued to be controlled, is the HOST soul, as in current Spectre would be Crispis, but tampering with the host soul would only unleash Gods Wrath, which would then kill her. No one has ever done such a tactic, but the host has shown it can be confused with telepathy and other such tactics, but either the host learns to understand and deals accordingly or simply unleashes the Wrath, which promply deals with the problem itself.

Unless of course, you're going to claim she could control The Logoz next. lol.

Anyways, The Spectre controls souls himself, and on a much higher level of play. It's safe to say he's got a counter for anything she's got. Just as it's safe to say she will lose any and all confontations with a character this powerful.

The gods who's power she summons couldn't defeat him, and the gods that made those gods couldn't beat him. He is the wrath of the almighty and she's way out of her league.

Period.

Last edited by Juntai on Apr 10th, 2006 at 12:01 AM

Old Post Apr 9th, 2006 11:58 PM
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batdude123
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I understand that Talisman is uber powerful, Alpha Flight doesn't get enough respect, Alpha Flight has some of the most powerful characters they just don't get recognized, etc... roll eyes (sarcastic) But this fight is complete non-sense. Spectre is like the Living Tribunal of the DC universe. Spectre would just blink her out of existance. Why is this even a fight?


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Last edited by batdude123 on Apr 10th, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:02 AM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by batdude123
I understand that Talisman is uber powerful, Alpha Flight doesn't get enough respect, Alpha Flight has some of the most powerful characters they just don't get recognized, etc... roll eyes (sarcastic) But this fight is complete non-sense Spectre is like the Living Tribunal of the DC universe. Spectre wold just blink her out of existance. Why is this even a fight?
He thinks she's just going to . . .take control of him. . . .. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:03 AM
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batdude123
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
He thinks she's just going to . . .take control of him. . . .. roll eyes (sarcastic)


laughing


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:06 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
Forum rules state characters are at their optimum when they fight. At optimum, Spectre destroys pretty much anyone and anything.

You're claiming a girl, through another gods jurisdiction is going to control the spirit of The Spectre. However, The Spectre is not a spirit, the HOST is.

All Black Alice did was temporarily BECOME the Spectre, and only for a handful of moments. What was left, described as an 'afterimage' in the comic was what is known as THE WRATH, to Spectre readers.... which is just a perception. That's all it is. It's a way that the universe interprets gods' uncontrolled anger. She was tapping The Spectre's power, which includes the ability to control and manipulate and destroy and guide any and all souls, yet all her power [which she only maintained for a total of what, 4 sentences?] she could do nothing to affect it. Talisman could not either, because it's not a soul, it's not even actually real, it's just a perception.

The only soul that COULD be argued to be controlled, is the HOST soul, as in current Spectre would be Crispis, but tampering with the host soul would only unleash Gods Wrath, which would then kill her. No one has ever done such a tactic, but the host has shown it can be confused with telepathy and other such tactics, but either the host learns to understand and deals accordingly or simply unleashes the Wrath, which promply deals with the problem itself.

Unless of course, you're going to claim she could control The Logoz next. lol.

Anyways, The Spectre controls souls himself, and on a much higher level of play. It's safe to say he's got a counter for anything she's got. Just as it's safe to say she will lose any and all confontations with a character this powerful. The gods who's power she summons couldn't defeat him, and the gods that made those gods couldn't beat him. He is the wrath of the almighty and she's way out of her league.



Of course I even stated that Talisman does't have the physical power to beat him.

Which can be controlled, hence my point. Spirit of Vegenance and the Binder of Spirits.

So? she took the Spectre's power, a mortal took all his power and left him nothing other than just a memory. Once again your commenting on points that have nothing to do with this thread. She wasn't experienced with the Spectre's power and didn't know how to fully use it, however, Spectre is still a living spirit a creature that Talisman is stated she can control with her powers. In that form yes he wasn't real, but Talisman wouldn't do anything like that. They even stated in the Day of Vengeance mini even without a host he was still a spirit.

That's fine, that's why I made this debate. I was not making statements set in stone that she manipulate him. However, you guys were claiming my logic was faulty, while I was still posting evidence. Yes no one has done such a tactic, because there is no one who can. There isn't anyone like Talisman in any of the DC or Marvel universes.

Unknown, like I said for all we know she could even be the avatar for the TOAA the same being as the wraith for Spectre. Not entirely, power-wise yes she can't do the things he can do. However, it's her ability to control all spirits that can give her the edge. Like I said for all we know she could be the avatar for all the gods, since she can manipulate magic on a high degree. Spectre has been beaten by mortals before, he is far from being untouchable.


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:11 AM
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batdude123
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Talisman can control spirits but not any all spirits. Spectre is not your average spirit, he is exactly like the Living Tribunal. I doubt Talisman is powerful enough to be able to control Spectre. But let's just say for the sake of arguements that she can (even though I doubt she can), how is she gonna control him before he just blinks Talisman out of existance?


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:21 AM
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Mider
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lol dont make me get into the Living jobber being a punk

Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:38 AM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Of course I even stated that Talisman does't have the physical power to beat him.

Which can be controlled, hence my point. Spirit of Vegenance and the Binder of Spirits.

So? she took the Spectre's power, a mortal took all his power and left him nothing other than just a memory. Once again your commenting on points that have nothing to do with this thread. She wasn't experienced with the Spectre's power and didn't know how to fully use it, however, Spectre is still a living spirit a creature that Talisman is stated she can control with her powers. In that form yes he wasn't real, but Talisman wouldn't do anything like that. They even stated in the Day of Vengeance mini even without a host he was still a spirit.

That's fine, that's why I made this debate. I was not making statements set in stone that she manipulate him. However, you guys were claiming my logic was faulty, while I was still posting evidence. Yes no one has done such a tactic, because there is no one who can. There isn't anyone like Talisman in any of the DC or Marvel universes.

Unknown, like I said for all we know she could even be the avatar for the TOAA the same being as the wraith for Spectre. Not entirely, power-wise yes she can't do the things he can do. However, it's her ability to control all spirits that can give her the edge. Like I said for all we know she could be the avatar for all the gods, since she can manipulate magic on a high degree. Spectre has been beaten by mortals before, he is far from being untouchable.

It's not a spirit, that's just how they percieved it.
I went through this already.
There is The Logoz, a piece of God, and the Host Spirit it bonds to.
The Wrath is just a perception that humanity creates.
This is all supported on panel and can't really be argued by you.
The only soul or spirit in The Spectre, is the hosts.
And attacking such would earn the ire of The Wrath.

But as said, Spectre plays in a different league. He can simply turn her powers off. Even turn the powers of wherever she draws her power from. Or any number of variables. He just plain wins.



Black Alice's random showing was a complete plot device.. and she didn't actually TAKE Spectre's power. She BECAME the Spectre, momentarily. "I am now the engine of divine vengeance". That's what her power is. She BECOMES who she borrows powers from. Similarly, she became Dr Fate, helmet, amulet, trinkets and all. All that was left when she did that in Day of Vengeance was The Wrath. A perception.

Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:42 AM
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Thunderstrike
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Why the heck do you hate Living Tribunal? That's like hating the guy who was running the water systems in Batman Begins!


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:42 AM
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batdude123
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mider
lol dont make me get into the Living jobber being a punk


Okay, you might not like The Living Tribunal, but this is Spectre we're talking about. Even you have to admit that Spectre would kick her ass within 1 second.


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:43 AM
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Well, a physical fight is a bit of a duh. Personally, I think she could control Spectre, because of the fact he's been duped before.


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:44 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
Black Alice's random showing was a complete plot device.. and she didn't actually TAKE Spectre's power. She BECAME the Spectre, momentarily. "I am now the engine of divine vengeance". That's what her power is. She BECOMES who she borrows powers from. Similarly, she became Dr Fate, helmet, amulet, trinkets and all. All that was left when she did that in Day of Vengeance was The Wrath. A perception.


I agree with part of everything you said. Black Alice DID take Spectre's power. He was powerless for that brief moment.


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:46 AM
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batdude123
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Thunderstrike
Well, a physical fight is a bit of a duh. Personally, I think she could control Spectre, because of the fact he's been duped before.


Dude c'mon, this fight would last all but a second. She can't even control Spectre as explained by Juntai before. He just blinks her out of existence within 1 second.


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:48 AM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jrodslam
I agree with part of everything you said. Black Alice DID take Spectre's power. He was powerless for that brief moment.
I have to dissagree, she BECAME Gods vengance, momentarily. Once that happened, all that was left was The Wrath, which is just a perception anyways.

There is nothing to TAKE, per-se.
Because Spectre IS a piece of God and a human soul.
Without a human soul, it's just a piece of God, and a perception humanity places on it.

She took a piece of God?

That doesn't even make sense.


She became Gods vengeance, as said herself, and all that was left, was The Wrath, the perception, and none of even Spectre's powers worked on it, why would Talismans?

The only option is attack the host with her spirit powers, but that would also just end in her demise.

Last edited by Juntai on Apr 10th, 2006 at 12:55 AM

Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:50 AM
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Neither does the sword of stuperman, but people use that in arguments too.


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:51 AM
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batdude123
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Thunderstrike
Neither does the sword of stuperman, but people use that in arguments too.


Completely and utterly irrelevant to this topic. Talisman would lose... badly too.


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:53 AM
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jrodslam
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
I have to dissagree, she BECAME Gods vengance/The Spectre, momentarily. Once that happened, all that was left was The Wrath, which is just a perception anyways.

There is nothing to TAKE, per-se.
Because Spectre IS a piece of God and a human soul.
Without a human soul, it's just a piece of God, and a perception humanity places on it.

She took a piece of God?

That doesn't even make sense.


Hey im just going by what the comics say.

Spectre: "My power! Its gone!"
Alice: "Its not your power anymore, Spectre! Its mine!"

Spectre then went on to say shortly after..

Spectre: "Without my power, nothings left but empty spirit."


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:54 AM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jrodslam
Hey im just going by what the comics say.

Spectre: "My power! Its gone!"
Alice: "Its not your power anymore, Spectre! Its mine!"

Spectre then went on to say shortly after..

Spectre: "Without my power, nothings left but empty spirit."
But it's just a perception, we know this from The Spectre comics, what was left is not the sum of the whole, it's not what Spectre is. Though it does have form and has existed seperately from Spectre on other occasions.

It is The Logoz and a host spirit, that is what The Spectre is.
She temporarily was bonded to the Logoz, as in she became the engine of divine vengeance, which she said herself. Once that was done, all that was left was an immaterial perception of The Wrath. Which as stated in Spectre comics, is not a spirit, just the way humanity perceives gods anger.

Even with that power, she was unable to affect The Wrath. Or the 'spirit', which is your first clue Talisman wouldn't be able to, since Spectre plays the soul game too, and on a much higher level.

Last edited by Juntai on Apr 10th, 2006 at 01:03 AM

Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 12:59 AM
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