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Talisman vs. Spectre
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GalacticStorm
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Still couldnt be bothered to look at that LLan source of all evil stuff, but i will 2morrow. As i said yesterday sounds like hyperbole. One character saying it in a comic book doesnt necessarily make it true especially when more powerful and impressive characters than Llan have been shown on panel who favour evil. Doesnt add up. Hyperbole. Either way i've got the issues myself i'll hav a look. wink


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 10:37 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Still couldnt be bothered to look at that LLan source of all evil stuff, but i will 2morrow. As i said yesterday sounds like hyperbole. One character saying it in a comic book doesnt necessarily make it true especially when more powerful and impressive characters than Llan have been shown on panel who favour evil. Doesnt add up. Hyperbole. Either way i've got the issues myself i'll hav a look. wink


Go for it they state it several times, and he is the strongest of the Ancient Evils. More powerful than Llan? bah! What you saw was Llan who was bound by rules of conduct that limited his power. Which was also said.


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 10:41 PM
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GalacticStorm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Go for it they state it several times, and he is the strongest of the Ancient Evils. More powerful than Llan? bah! What you saw was Llan who was bound by rules of conduct that limited his power. Which was also said.


Irrelevant. There are characters who favour evil who have better feats than LLan, therefore such statements are contradicted and have not been shown to be conclusively the case. Is it ever defined what the Ancient Evils are? For all we it could be a particular group of malevolent entities according to whatever mythology and folklore Talisman and her father prescribe to. It might NOT be a term that describes all evil. Given the fact that as aforementioned LLans showings conflict with your interpretation and also that Mephisto has been referred to by cosmic beings as the premiere evil being on Earth its a notion thats not supported outside of Alpha Flight im afraid to say sad

Either way i'll provide any scans 2morrow. Just ask. wink


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 10:49 PM
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It's a term described by all evil, since Eternity is the one who created the rules which Llan must follow by. As said Llan is the source of evil that enters this world

1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c...Flight72-03.jpg

Next worse thing to the devil himself
1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c...Flight72-09.jpg

Of all the ancient evils, he is the strongest
1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c...Flight72-20.jpg


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 10:53 PM
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Juntai
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I have to agree with him, she is young and freshhh.
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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 10:55 PM
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Oh and since you have the issues read Alpha Flight #83, which dealt with the previous Talisman battling Llan and talked aobut his powers.


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2006 10:58 PM
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GalacticStorm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by King_Mungi
It's a term described by all evil, since Eternity is the one who created the rules which Llan must follow by. As said Llan is the source of evil that enters this world

1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c...Flight72-03.jpg

Next worse thing to the devil himself
1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c...Flight72-09.jpg

Of all the ancient evils, he is the strongest
1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c...Flight72-20.jpg


HYPERBOLE!!!! If they are the only reasons behind your positioning of LLan then your argument is about as water tight as a sieve.

There are far too many unknowns. LLan has no feats to back up Talsimans words, the ancient evils as aforementioned could just be those of the mythology and lore Talisman and her father prescribe to and NOT all evil in Marvel as you have chosen to interpret. LLan has not featured or been referred to by anyone outside of Alpha Flight as he most certainly would as the greatest evil in Marvel. There are many cosmic entities who favour evil and yet you would have us believe that an obscure character solely mentioned in Alpha Flight is greater than them merely because of the words of Talisman, words which have yet to be proven to be anything but hyperbole? confused

(please log in to view the image)

Sorry mate. Nothing conclusive, not buying it. wink


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2006 10:45 AM
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Oh there is more to it, trust me. Also Dr.Strange stated it as well, and Llan easily almost killed him twice with two traps. I'm going to post the Llan scans in the respect thread starting tommorow. Also I take Talisman words highly since “She is the breaker of Dark Spells, the one who binds all evil”

1. http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g...Flight71-21.jpg
2. http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g...Flight71-23.jpg

Here's his stats:
1. http://www.unfluffybunny.com/cripp12/K-L/llanback.jpg
2. http://www.unfluffybunny.com/cripp1...s-Abilities.jpg

Also these obsure charaters in Alpha Flight have saved all realities from Carcass, a disciple of Khoas, defeated Galactus, defeated the Dreamqueen and saved the world. These obsure characters do way more than people give them credit. Just because their obsure we shouldn't take them serious? I don't think so.


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2006 04:09 PM
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Mider
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if Llan cant even go above the power of eternity why would he defeat the spectre and llan can probably defeat talisman arent they equal in power?

Old Post Apr 11th, 2006 05:03 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mider
if Llan cant even go above the power of eternity why would he defeat the spectre and llan can probably defeat talisman arent they equal in power?


What are you talking about? It wasn't said Llan was weaker than Eternity just that Eternity and the other law making cosmics made the rules. I NEVER even said Llan would defeat the Spectre or even talked about him fighting the Spectre, please guys read what I'm saying.


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2006 05:06 PM
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Newjak
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Ok let me get this straight.
Basically you put a character in a match where they have only one possible chance of winning.

Ok lets see the best thing you have to show us Mungi is her controlling Skyfather level beings right. Next you tell us her title as Binder of Spirits and that she is powered by Gods. I hate to say it but going from there thats not much to help form an argument as to why she could possibly take control of Spectre a being that makes Skyfathers look like jokes.

Now you still are basing this off of the fact that she once said that she can control all spirits. Lets be realistic here many characters make claims like Juggernaut says he is unstoppable while maybe one thing as shown to stop nothing else has does that mean we should take it is scripture that if he went against Spectre he could run over him I mean even Juggernaut is powered by Gods right.

That is where logic falls apart in that in your attempt to gain recognition for a person you haven't presented that as much as you say. Like I said you have shown her once manipulating Skyfather level beings Spectre can rewrite existence is a part of the Supreme Power of the Multiverse there is a big difference in the power level you presented and what Spectre is.

Now if you could show her manipulating beings above Eternity you main gain more credibilty with this but to base a decision on what you have given now well I wouldn't side with you thats for sure.


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2006 05:52 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by newjak86
Ok let me get this straight.
Basically you put a character in a match where they have only one possible chance of winning.

Ok lets see the best thing you have to show us Mungi is her controlling Skyfather level beings right. Next you tell us her title as Binder of Spirits and that she is powered by Gods. I hate to say it but going from there thats not much to help form an argument as to why she could possibly take control of Spectre a being that makes Skyfathers look like jokes.

Now you still are basing this off of the fact that she once said that she can control all spirits. Lets be realistic here many characters make claims like Juggernaut says he is unstoppable while maybe one thing as shown to stop nothing else has does that mean we should take it is scripture that if he went against Spectre he could run over him I mean even Juggernaut is powered by Gods right.

That is where logic falls apart in that in your attempt to gain recognition for a person you haven't presented that as much as you say. Like I said you have shown her once manipulating Skyfather level beings Spectre can rewrite existence is a part of the Supreme Power of the Multiverse there is a big difference in the power level you presented and what Spectre is.

Now if you could show her manipulating beings above Eternity you main gain more credibilty with this but to base a decision on what you have given now well I wouldn't side with you thats for sure.


Correct, as I said she can't match him up physically. This is a debate wether or not she could control him or not.

There were examples to show Talisman has great power and is underestimated in the grand scheme of things. Could she beat Spectre in a straight up fight? No.

Talisman is powered by the gods, which gods were never stated. She is unique there is no one else that has her powerset. Do I think she can win in a fight with the Spectre? hell no.

Yes I know Spectre outclasses her in strength, but this debate was wether or not she could control the Spectre. She could control the host, but like others said the Spectre aspect would eventually step in. I agreed to that.

AHHHH! I didn't even say Talisman wins, just posted evidence about her powers and gave a better indication who she is.


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2006 06:14 PM
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Newjak
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Correct, as I said she can't match him up physically. This is a debate wether or not she could control him or not.

There were examples to show Talisman has great power and is underestimated in the grand scheme of things. Could she beat Spectre in a straight up fight? No.

Talisman is powered by the gods, which gods were never stated. She is unique there is no one else that has her powerset. Do I think she can win in a fight with the Spectre? hell no.

Yes I know Spectre outclasses her in strength, but this debate was wether or not she could control the Spectre. She could control the host, but like others said the Spectre aspect would eventually step in. I agreed to that.

AHHHH! I didn't even say Talisman wins, just posted evidence about her powers and gave a better indication who she is.
I know perfectly well what your trying to say but the exact opposite can be said for what your trying to say.

You say we don't know what Gods power and that they may be the greatest of all true but then agian they could be nothing more than Elder Gods which doesn't really help your arguement. You said that she once said that she controls all spirits and that she is the Binder of Souls I told many characters go by Titles and say things about themselves that aren't true hence my Juggernaut comment.

This debate is about whether she can control them but in turn what you have given us is a saying and her controling Skyfather level beings and saying she is backed by Gods. Nothing really enough to say she could even begin to control a being on the level of Spectre.

Also if you don't want to say who wins or not and was simply trying to share something about a character wouldn't
A) Be better to talk about it in the Alpha Flight Repsect thread or
B) Put her in a fight that is much more interesting and where you could pull more of her feats besides one and a saying.


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2006 06:20 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by newjak86
I know perfectly well what your trying to say but the exact opposite can be said for what your trying to say.

You say we don't know what Gods power and that they may be the greatest of all true but then agian they could be nothing more than Elder Gods which doesn't really help your arguement. You said that she once said that she controls all spirits and that she is the Binder of Souls I told many characters go by Titles and say things about themselves that aren't true hence my Juggernaut comment.

This debate is about whether she can control them but in turn what you have given us is a saying and her controling Skyfather level beings and saying she is backed by Gods. Nothing really enough to say she could even begin to control a being on the level of Spectre.

Also if you don't want to say who wins or not and was simply trying to share something about a character wouldn't
A) Be better to talk about it in the Alpha Flight Repsect thread or
B) Put her in a fight that is much more interesting and where you could pull more of her feats besides one and a saying.


But that's not what I'm implying, like as said Spectre could just think her out of existance. No way could she match that kinda fire-power.

But I'm not debating who wins, my main thing was posting information about Talisman. Since let's be honest who actually knows about her? Well in the comics every spirit or a being from the spirit world she came into contact with she controlled so that matches up. Could she control the Spectre? up for debate, hence the thread. If I knew for a fact she could I wouldn't have made this thread.

Indeed, this is merely to generate debate. However, people began claiming I said thing I never said or even implied and then it just went down hill from there.

A) No, because battles help give a character more spotlight and more information. Not everyone looks at the respect thread
B) Oh she has way more feats posted in the respect thread, such as her teleporting an entire city with over hundreds of thousand of people in it. I just didn't think most of them needed to be posted, since she can't match his power. Her ONLY chance was IF she could control him.


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2006 06:29 PM
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Newjak
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by King_Mungi
But that's not what I'm implying, like as said Spectre could just think her out of existance. No way could she match that kinda fire-power.

But I'm not debating who wins, my main thing was posting information about Talisman. Since let's be honest who actually knows about her? Well in the comics every spirit or a being from the spirit world she came into contact with she controlled so that matches up. Could she control the Spectre? up for debate, hence the thread. If I knew for a fact she could I wouldn't have made this thread.

Indeed, this is merely to generate debate. However, people began claiming I said thing I never said or even implied and then it just went down hill from there.

A) No, because battles help give a character more spotlight and more information. Not everyone looks at the respect thread
B) Oh she has way more feats posted in the respect thread, such as her teleporting an entire city with over hundreds of thousand of people in it. I just didn't think most of them needed to be posted, since she can't match his power. Her ONLY chance was IF she could control him.
Every being from the spirit world and since when did Spectre come from the spirit world last time I checked he was a part of God. Could she control Spectre not with the Info you have given.A)

I read the entire thread basically all you did was back up your claim that she could control him which is what I've been talking about I never tried to base this on the fire power both bring simply trying to state that there is a difference between the power levels in your feat and what Spectre is.

A) is true
B) I meant to place her in a different fight where you aren't relying a one shot in the dark feat but instead could show the versatility of the character as well.


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2006 06:34 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by newjak86
Every being from the spirit world and since when did Spectre come from the spirit world last time I checked he was a part of God. Could she control Spectre not with the Info you have given.A)

I read the entire thread basically all you did was back up your claim that she could control him which is what I've been talking about I never tried to base this on the fire power both bring simply trying to state that there is a difference between the power levels in your feat and what Spectre is.

A) is true
B) I meant to place her in a different fight where you aren't relying a one shot in the dark feat but instead could show the versatility of the character as well.


Going by host spirit manipulation, since the Spectre aspect is part of the Logoz. Nope, I was expecting more of a debate rather than people just simply attacking me and claiming things I never said.

Well that's all I can do, since she can;t match him up phsyically. So I had to provide evidence about how she can control spirits since power-wise he surpasses her. Well what I mentioned earlier against beings stronger than her she actually controlled stronger appirations than her just because they were spirits.

A)...
B) Oh I gotcha, and it's hard to put a magical user against most people since most magic users are plot making frenzy monsters. Especially using a character not as well known as Talisman.


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2006 06:41 PM
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Newjak
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Going by host spirit manipulation, since the Spectre aspect is part of the Logoz. Nope, I was expecting more of a debate rather than people just simply attacking me and claiming things I never said.

Well that's all I can do, since she can;t match him up phsyically. So I had to provide evidence about how she can control spirits since power-wise he surpasses her. Well what I mentioned earlier against beings stronger than her she actually controlled stronger appirations than her just because they were spirits.

A)...
B) Oh I gotcha, and it's hard to put a magical user against most people since most magic users are plot making frenzy monsters. Especially using a character not as well known as Talisman.
I'm not attacking just presenting what I've seen.

She was able to take control of beings stronger than her yes but you said she is backed by Gods so it could be said that its because of them and not her and since we don't know the true nature of the Gods we can't place base anything on the idea they could be stronger than Spectre simply by one showing against Skyfather level beings.

I understand what you mean about magic users. Still though if you want a character to get more spot light you got to put them in interesting matches that show what they can do. Then you just got to stay steady and show what that character can do. GS did it for Phoenix thats how people find out what a character is capable of.
For instance a good couple ideas could be Talisman vs Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate, Zatanna. Other magic users maybe Thor.


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2006 06:50 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by newjak86
I'm not attacking just presenting what I've seen.

She was able to take control of beings stronger than her yes but you said she is backed by Gods so it could be said that its because of them and not her and since we don't know the true nature of the Gods we can't place base anything on the idea they could be stronger than Spectre simply by one showing against Skyfather level beings.

I understand what you mean about magic users. Still though if you want a character to get more spot light you got to put them in interesting matches that show what they can do. Then you just got to stay steady and show what that character can do. GS did it for Phoenix thats how people find out what a character is capable of.
For instance a good couple ideas could be Talisman vs Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate, Zatanna. Other magic users maybe Thor.


Oh no I'm not saying you were, oh and I just found more evidence of Talisman manipulating the Gods of the Arctic twice, and Tanaraq twice. So Talisman has done it a few times, regardless moot point.

Correct, but that's why I expected somewhat of a debate to discuss these factors. Also we never got an explanation of how she does the things she does. Just a vague explanation she is the Native-American messiah.

Oh I know, but with most of the characters of Alpha Flight it's almost impossible to make a good matchup. Check the respect thread for yourself, I only just gotten into them recently and I was shocked how strong they are.

Most of those have been done, but since Talisman is so unknown they automatically side with the more well known character. Hence my dilemia.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2006 12:24 PM
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Spectre would win this fight. Talisman would be earesed. Talisman isn't Lucifer neither LT level so Talisman is screwed.


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