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Home » Comic Book Forums » Comic Book 'Versus' Forum » Lucifer vs. Spectre.

Lucifer vs. Spectre.
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LatinoStallion
Perfection

Gender: Male
Location: Paradise

Sorry bro, had to repeat





AGAIN...YOU KEEP AVOIDING MY QUESTIONS,,,

CAN HE FEEL BOREDOM OR LONELINESS?



DOES HE NEED TO PREVENT BOREDOM AND OR LONELINESS???

IF HE NEEDS TO DO SO, HE IS IMPERFECT


A PERFECT BEING NEEDS NO OTHER BECAUSE IT WOULD BE COMPLETE IN ITSELF

LIKE THE PRESENCE


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Old Post May 14th, 2006 03:28 AM
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LatinoStallion
Perfection

Gender: Male
Location: Paradise

LOL wow.....

A being cannot create the possibility of existance if that being ALREADY EXISTS...

the Concept of Existance surpasses all....even a Supreme Perfect God.

It is literally impossible for someone to EXIST before the concept of EXISTANCE does.


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Old Post May 14th, 2006 03:30 AM
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Juntai
Divine Vengeance

Gender: Male
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Sorry bro, had to repeat





AGAIN...YOU KEEP AVOIDING MY QUESTIONS,,,

CAN HE FEEL BOREDOM OR LONELINESS?



DOES HE NEED TO PREVENT BOREDOM AND OR LONELINESS???

IF HE NEEDS TO DO SO, HE IS IMPERFECT


A PERFECT BEING NEEDS NO OTHER BECAUSE IT WOULD BE COMPLETE IN ITSELF

LIKE THE PRESENCE
He is complete. Everything is an extension of him. He even created the concept of 'complete'. He created everything and everything, in and out of creation, exists as an extension of himself, and his will.


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Old Post May 14th, 2006 03:32 AM
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Juntai
Divine Vengeance

Gender: Male
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
LOL wow.....

A being cannot create the possibility of existance if that being ALREADY EXISTS...

the Concept of Existance surpasses all....even a Supreme Perfect God.

It is literally impossible for someone to EXIST before the concept of EXISTANCE does.
I can't help it that that you can't understand and accept it. It's not my fault.

Yahweh is not a being neccisarily. He's drawn as one simply because that's how he allows himself to be recognized. You'll notice when Elaine [The new God of Vertigo] goes to talk to Yahweh, she walks across white pages and panels, and then Yahweh has create an image of himself that she can even understand, just to talk to her. He is beyond all ideas and comprehensions. Even beings who understand existance as a whole, cannot comprehend Yahweh or his motives. It's not my fault you cannot accept this, but it is what happens.. Yahweh created EVERYTHING.


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I am God's mighty fist. I am God's strength made manifest.

Sig by: Skeets, S.S, thesilverspider, Sir SKEETS Alot

Last edited by Juntai on May 14th, 2006 at 03:38 AM

Old Post May 14th, 2006 03:32 AM
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LatinoStallion
Perfection

Gender: Male
Location: Paradise

Ne ways thats besides the point.

I'm gonna budge, and say that although Yahweh is probably as close to perfection as anything can get...he is not quite there.

You cannot be both perfect and imperfect at the same time, well in some senses you can, but if you're saying Yahweh is perfect, then imperfection cannot come from him.

Existance in all its OTHER forms certainly can. But since he ALREADY existed, he did not create the CONCEPT of existance, it was THERE with him the entire duration.


If Yahweh needs for things to go his way, if he NEEDS or WANTS anything...than he is imperfect. Perfection needs nothing, and since everything needs and or wants another, NOTHING is perfect or is perfection,


I have yet to see you answer my two questions above

Can Yahweh feel or feel the need to prevent boredom and loneliness ?


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Old Post May 14th, 2006 03:33 AM
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LatinoStallion
Perfection

Gender: Male
Location: Paradise

I can't help it that that you can't understand and accept it. It's not my fault.


LOL but you see...yes you can. You can CLEAR all my confusion and misconceptions if you just ANSWER MY QUESTIONS and ATTACK MY POINTS directly......

You keep insisting on avoiding to do so, so until you do, i will not be convinced of anything


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Old Post May 14th, 2006 03:35 AM
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kevdude
The Hooded Man

Gender: Male
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
AGAIN...YOU KEEP AVOIDING MY QUESTIONS,,,

CAN HE FEEL BOREDOM OR LONELINESS?



DOES HE NEED TO PREVENT BOREDOM AND OR LONELINESS???

IF HE NEEDS TO DO SO, HE IS IMPERFECT


A PERFECT BEING NEEDS NO OTHER BECAUSE IT WOULD BE COMPLETE IN ITSELF

LIKE THE PRESENCE


We are not ignoring you, everything has already been discussed and answered its just you don't understand or get it. yahweh/the presence can feel boredom or loneliness, he can also feel ALOT MORE THEN THAT, it is beyond everything. IT IS GOD. Hal Jordan was embraced by The Presence, and he couldn't even begin to understand it.

Old Post May 14th, 2006 03:37 AM
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LatinoStallion
Perfection

Gender: Male
Location: Paradise

And Juntai..some thing must be wrong with my computer, which may cause our or my misunderstanding.


Every time i post something, then look back on it, i see your FULL argument, but before i post something, i only see pieces of your argument.

i dont know why that is ????


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Old Post May 14th, 2006 03:37 AM
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LatinoStallion
Perfection

Gender: Male
Location: Paradise

Try to undestand Juntai, the only reason i misunderstand you is bcuz my computer only allows me to see pieces of your argument for wahtever reason....so ill keep trying to debate as best i can


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Old Post May 14th, 2006 03:39 AM
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LatinoStallion
Perfection

Gender: Male
Location: Paradise

We are not ignoring you, everything has already been discussed and answered its just you don't understand or get it. yahweh/the presence can feel boredom or loneliness, he can also feel ALOT MORE THEN THAT, it is beyond everything. IT IS GOD. Hal Jordan was embraced by The Presence, and he couldn't even begin to understand it.



That's cool, but Juntai just stated that Presence and Yahweh are too different things.



Even if Yahweh did conform to Elaine to be a recognizable form, his reasoning still consisted of self conflict.

If he can unwillingly feel boredom or loneliness, because someone said the reason he created existance was to prevent his loneliness, then he is imperfect.

I never said he's not supreme, and not the highest being imaginable..i just sed he's flawed. Since his creation is flawed, he most probably is as well.

Perfection doesnt DESIRE anything...its already perfect itself.

Even if everything goes the way YAHWEH wants, the VERY fact that he WANTS anything makes him imperfect.


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Old Post May 14th, 2006 03:42 AM
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LatinoStallion
Perfection

Gender: Male
Location: Paradise

And btw, Juntai has not addressed all my previous points.

He simplifed all his answers expecting me to be convinced, isntead of directly nullifying my claims with his proof.

I asked him numerous times to do so. Maybe my computer freezes and doesnt let some of his info come thru, who knows. But i do not feel he has ANSWERED my questions....

He might have TRIED...in all sincerity, and i appreciate that, but he hasn't quite hit it, especially since he danced around my direct and specific questions and claims.

thats all


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Old Post May 14th, 2006 03:44 AM
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Juntai
Divine Vengeance

Gender: Male
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
We are not ignoring you, everything has already been discussed and answered its just you don't understand or get it. yahweh/the presence can feel boredom or loneliness, he can also feel ALOT MORE THEN THAT, it is beyond everything. IT IS GOD. Hal Jordan was embraced by The Presence, and he couldn't even begin to understand it.



That's cool, but Juntai just stated that Presence and Yahweh are too different things.



Even if Yahweh did conform to Elaine to be a recognizable form, his reasoning still consisted of self conflict.

If he can unwillingly feel boredom or loneliness, because someone said the reason he created existance was to prevent his loneliness, then he is imperfect.

I never said he's not supreme, and not the highest being imaginable..i just sed he's flawed. Since his creation is flawed, he most probably is as well.

Perfection doesnt DESIRE anything...its already perfect itself.

Even if everything goes the way YAHWEH wants, the VERY fact that he WANTS anything makes him imperfect.
Only by your reasoning, but then again, you can barely understand how carbon based life forms work, let alone understand the motives of Yahweh. Everything has perfectly gone along Yahweh's plan, we just can't pretend to know or comprehend the plan. Yahweh created everything, before that, it was just him, which is what you just wrote as being perfection.

If Yahweh felt any lonliness, than it because he first invented the idea and concept of lonliness, and then applied it to himself. Because NOTHING exists without his will. Even the things you seem to consider as basic and all consuming/applying concepts. He created it all.


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I am God's mighty fist. I am God's strength made manifest.

Sig by: Skeets, S.S, thesilverspider, Sir SKEETS Alot

Last edited by Juntai on May 14th, 2006 at 03:50 AM

Old Post May 14th, 2006 03:47 AM
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Mider
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Location: United States

why is anyone talking about the presance if this thread is about the spectre and lucifer all it does is take away from the real battle

Old Post May 14th, 2006 04:12 AM
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LatinoStallion
Perfection

Gender: Male
Location: Paradise

Only by your reasoning, but then again, you can barely understand how carbon based life forms work, let alone understand the motives of Yahweh. Everything has perfectly gone along Yahweh's plan, we just can't pretend to know or comprehend the plan. Yahweh created everything, before that, it was just him, which is what you just wrote as being perfection.




Ultamely Juntai this really comes down to your intepretation VS my own, and I doubt this will go anywhere as we'll both stick to our own.


I will conclude my argument against Yahweh by saying this much:

You're telling me that I could never comprehend the mentality and actuality that is Yahweh. He has his reasons for everything, and many of those reasons are way beyond by ability to grasp.

Cool....although again this seems like the Yahweh you probably beleive in, and not the Vertigo Yahweh.

Remember bro, the Yahweh is Vertigo is JUST A CHARACTER...nothing more, he doesn't exist in reality. You're telling me that I AS READER and AS an ACTUAL EXISTING HUMAN BEING cannot comprehend the "WILL" of a COMIC book character.


As if is truly superior to ME in anyway. Yahweh from Vertigo, and ANY other character from ANY comic book world is in NO WAY superior to the WRITERS OR READERS. WE are superior to them, because WE EXIST and they do not. No matter how "powerful" these characters are, they are subject to the writer's plans, and our reading.

Therefore, it is our right to question and debate all we want about any character we want. To tell me that Vertigo's Yahweh is beyond anything I can understand is totally unrealistic, and again probably fueled by your bias of your own personal beleif in God.











If Yahweh felt any lonliness, than it because he first invented the idea and concept of lonliness, and then applied it to himself. Because NOTHING exists without his will. Even the things you seem to consider as basic and all consuming/applying concepts. He created it all.


For the sake of moving on, I will take your point and simply accept it. You did write a lot of responses to my argument, which means you must have considered it in your own way. If VERTIGO says that Yahweh is beyond even the concepts of Existance, Loneliness, and Boredom, then I must accept that, no matter how much it conflicts with my reasoning, or how much sense it makes.

Like i said though, its just writers. There is no REAL Vertigo Yahweh, therefore to tell me that he is beyond ME, an existing reader, is a false argument.





But......I'll budge and say that because of the points you made, perhaps he is not flawed.....maybe he IS perfect....even if he is ABOVE perfection in your intepretation,. wink


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Old Post May 14th, 2006 02:39 PM
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Mider
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i so dont care about the presance or TOAA in this battle id like to know who would win between lucifer and the spectre! I mean how does anyone in here know if Micheals powers even go up or down when the presence tells him to do something if no one can prove they do then they probably dont fluctuate meaning when he beat the spectre in day of vengence or whatever comic it was it was probably cause he's just plain stronger, the whole spectre was called to help micheal get that sword out means nothing, i might have a sword in my chest and since its such a horrible wond i probably couldnt get it out myself either but would have to ask for help even from someone smaller and possibly weaker then me does that make me any smaller or weaker no just means i needed help in one occassion.

Old Post May 14th, 2006 02:51 PM
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HueyFreeman
Super Fighting Robot

Gender: Male
Location: United States

I have been reading your posts your correct but I don't think that was the intent of the writer. If Yaweh feels and must satisfy himself, he is not perfect for perfection desires nothing. If he was unhappy with his work than that would many him fallible. I think Juns trying to win the arguement with " he works in mysterious ways" , and that does not cut it anymore.


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Old Post May 14th, 2006 03:03 PM
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LatinoStallion
Perfection

Gender: Male
Location: Paradise

I have been reading your posts your correct but I don't think that was the intent of the writer. If Yaweh feels and must satisfy himself, he is not perfect for perfection desires nothing. If he was unhappy with his work than that would many him fallible. I think Juns trying to win the arguement with " he works in mysterious ways" , and that does not cut it anymore.



THANK YOU BIG SEXY,....

That is the point i was trying to make, and you made the most direct version of my points.

I really beleive that Jun, maybe unknowingly, is using his own possible religious bias, or his own intepretation of what and who God is and projecting it upon Vertigo's God.

If Vertigo SAYS Yahweh is perfect, than no1 can argue. Otherwise, we can argue all we want.


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Old Post May 14th, 2006 03:05 PM
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kevdude
The Hooded Man

Gender: Male
Location: Ohio

Well in DC that is how it seems they have it set up Lord Uziren. They have the 5D imps who are above the the 3D beings. They have Earth Prime which is suppose to be OUR EARTH and it is in there comics. And who is there god they have picked to be over everything (even us in there comics). Yahweh/The Presence is over DC Comics. DC/Vergito have already put him to being perfect, just read the comics that deal with religion in DC. Maybe you might understand now since I put it like this smile .


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Old Post May 15th, 2006 02:47 AM
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LatinoStallion
Perfection

Gender: Male
Location: Paradise

Maybe ur right.


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Old Post May 15th, 2006 02:48 AM
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LatinoStallion
Perfection

Gender: Male
Location: Paradise

Ne ways that entire argument between Juntai and myself has nothing to do with Lucifer and Spectre per say. This was started in another thread "BATTLE OF GODS" i started

where it was decided by me and a few other debators, including Big Sexy, that TOAA may be Yahweh since Yahweh is a flawed character in our opinion, and TOAA theres not enough about him to debate that, TOAA probably simple IS just like Presence just IS..no charactertization done, only proof of supremecy.



Ne ways i understand what you mean. If Vertigo claims that Yahweh is perfect, then i can't argue that. HOWEVER..i'd prefer to see where VERTIGO claims this...what comic book issue, what handbook, what description? On Vertigo's main website Lucifer comics section, it says that fact no where.


So until i see for myself that Yahweh is claimed as perfection and flawless by Vertigo themselves, i along with several other skeptics will still go under the impression that he is flawed, but as close to perfection as he can possibly be.

Again its all on how you define perfection as well.


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Old Post May 15th, 2006 02:52 AM
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