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Balrog versus Sauron
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KuRuPT Thanosi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
If by "we've already settled this" you mean you've claimed as such while also showing a distinct lack of understanding of the source material, sure. If you mean we have come to some mutual understanding based on the concrete evidence then certainly not.


Coming from you that is rich. If you review the gothmog vs. Sauron thread... you'll notice I was one of the only people to brings facts to the table about Gothmog. This is what it comes down to and there is literally no way around these facts

1. Gothmog was the one leading the armies not Sauron. Sauron was busy practicing his shapeshifting and magic. Morgoth Choose gothmog to lead his troops in battle. Thus, showing who he felt like was the man for the job. More often than not in Tolkien... the best lead from the front... We see this with Feanor... Finrod... Tulkas... The list goes on and on.. even in Middle earth... Aragorn was leading the charge. Gothmog was leading the charge not Sauron for a reason.

2. Gothmog has defeated far superior foes without dying nearly as many times. Defeating the greatest elf alone speaks to this. Feanor was the best or at the very least of the best. Gothmog killed him. Which powerful elf king did Sauron kill that can compare to Feanor? None. That's not even getting into ecth or others at all. Defeating Feanor is better than any Elven Lord Sauron killed

3. Sauron has died many more times than Gothmog. Sure he's come back as well... which does show might... but it also shows a lack of power being killed over and over again. How many times has he died now... Like 5?

4. When Gothmog was around... not one time.. not once was Sauron ordering Gothmog around or leading him and others in battle. Not one time did this ever happen. Why is that? Why is it that Gothmog was the one leading the troops into battle to capture key places morgoth wanted destroyed? He put his best warrior in front and that was Gothmog not Sauron. There's a reason for this. Morgoth is exponentially more powerful and wise than Sauron.. if he could really get the job done better he would've been in charge, he wasn't, gothmog was.

This is how I view it... Sauron is more powerful in the dark arts and was Morgoths best and most prized student. He's known for being an illusionist.. a politician... very powerful wizard. That's all great. Morgoth is a tank and renowned for his fighting abilities. That's is why he was leading the charge. That is why he was said to be equal to Sauron in rank.

Old Post Dec 12th, 2014 11:43 PM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Coming from you that is rich. If you review the gothmog vs. Sauron thread... you'll notice I was one of the only people to brings facts to the table about Gothmog.


laughing out loud


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Old Post Dec 13th, 2014 12:05 AM
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NemeBro
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
[B]
1. Gothmog was the one leading the armies not Sauron.


Minas Tirith

quote:
the best lead from the front


Thingol, Melian, Morgoth, Sauron himself, the Valar in general. All the most powerful or among the most powerful in their faction. All didn't lead armies from the front most of the time.

Also, Association fallacy.

quote:
2. Gothmog has defeated far superior foes without dying nearly as many times. Defeating the greatest elf alone speaks to this. Feanor was the best or at the very least of the best. Gothmog killed him. Which powerful elf king did Sauron kill that can compare to Feanor? None. That's not even getting into ecth or others at all. Defeating Feanor is better than any Elven Lord Sauron killed


He had help for Feanor, Luthien's feats are better than Feanor's, Sauron took her down. thumb up

In fact, Gothmog has never actually killed a named character on his own. The one time he fought an elf who mattered by himself he died. Oh...

quote:
3. Sauron has died many more times than Gothmog. Sure he's come back as well... which does show might... but it also shows a lack of power being killed over and over again. How many times has he died now... Like 5?


Gothmog's first death occurred before Sauron's, and he was unable to come back.

Your point has no relevance toward whether or not Gothmog can defeat Sauron, so it is easily dismissed.

quote:
4. When Gothmog was around... not one time.. not once was Sauron ordering Gothmog around or leading him and others in battle. Not one time did this ever happen. Why is that? Why is it that Gothmog was the one leading the troops into battle to capture key places morgoth wanted destroyed? He put his best warrior in front and that was Gothmog not Sauron. There's a reason for this. Morgoth is exponentially more powerful and wise than Sauron.. if he could really get the job done better he would've been in charge, he wasn't, gothmog was.


Sauron captured the fortress of Minas Tirith in FA457. Gothmog died in FA510. You're objectively wrong here. Feel bad.

Also, Gothmog leading troops more often means nothing to personal power. Yet another Red Herring. thumb up

Oh, and you've said this already. Padding the length of your posts to make your argument seem more impressive than it really is is the sign of a weak argument.

quote:
This is how I view it... Sauron is more powerful in the dark arts and was Morgoths best and most prized student. He's known for being an illusionist.. a politician... very powerful wizard. That's all great. Morgoth is a tank and renowned for his fighting abilities. That's is why he was leading the charge. That is why he was said to be equal to Sauron in rank.


Stop confusing Morgoth for Gothmog.

Sauron wins. thumb up


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Old Post Dec 13th, 2014 12:59 AM
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KuRuPT Thanosi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
Minas Tirith



Thingol, Melian, Morgoth, Sauron himself, the Valar in general. All the most powerful or among the most powerful in their faction. All didn't lead armies from the front most of the time.

Also, Association fallacy.



He had help for Feanor, Luthien's feats are better than Feanor's, Sauron took her down. thumb up

In fact, Gothmog has never actually killed a named character on his own. The one time he fought an elf who mattered by himself he died. Oh...



Gothmog's first death occurred before Sauron's, and he was unable to come back.

Your point has no relevance toward whether or not Gothmog can defeat Sauron, so it is easily dismissed.



Sauron captured the fortress of Minas Tirith in FA457. Gothmog died in FA510. You're objectively wrong here. Feel bad.

Also, Gothmog leading troops more often means nothing to personal power. Yet another Red Herring. thumb up

Oh, and you've said this already. Padding the length of your posts to make your argument seem more impressive than it really is is the sign of a weak argument.



Stop confusing Morgoth for Gothmog.

Sauron wins. thumb up


You don't say... Please post the passage that talks about Gothmog being there for that battle. I've never seen any narration that speaks about him being there. Should I assume all the battles that Gothmog lead, which as we know is many more than Sauron when they were both alive, that Sauron was there even if he wasn't mentioned? Okay, that will just prove my point further. Thanks.

What do you the Valar in general didn't lead from the front.. That couldn't be further from the truth. Tulkas the best warrior always lead from the front. Same with Feanor... Finrond... Fingolfin... Aragorn... Gandalf... shit even the two kinds who attacked Sauron lead from the front. There are more of examples of the best leading from the front than the opposite. Some examples of this not happening doesn't change that it happened most of the time. Which is exactly why Gothmog was placed IN CHARGE and lead from the front.

Why is the narration often quoted of only Gothmog was equal to Sauron in rank. What does this mean? He's actually below Sauron? Explain that to me.

Luthien's feats are not better first off and second.. that was about as PIS as it gets. So she can take somebody out vastly more powerful than Sauron but can't take Sauron out... That is almost the definition of PIS and context.

Gothmog has defeated superior people plain and simple. We can say ohh he had help and try and dismiss them but again that falls flat. It was a BATTLE there was fighting going on all around them. Feanor was not alone he had elves with him and others. Gothmog had help. That's what happens when there is a BATTLE. Gothmog killed Feanor plain and simple. He's killed better people and died far far fewer times. Shit a weaker Balrog battle a maia for days on end and died in the process killing a weaker one. Sauron has gotten killed by flooding...

Old Post Dec 16th, 2014 05:46 PM
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NemeBro
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You don't say... Please post the passage that talks about Gothmog being there for that battle. I've never seen any narration that speaks about him being there. Should I assume all the battles that Gothmog lead, which as we know is many more than Sauron when they were both alive, that Sauron was there even if he wasn't mentioned? Okay, that will just prove my point further. Thanks.


How does Gothmog not leading the conquest of Minas Tirith prove that Gothmog was always leading the armies? It does the opposite, actually.

quote:
What do you the Valar in general didn't lead from the front.. That couldn't be further from the truth. Tulkas the best warrior always lead from the front.


That must be why he sat around jacking his dick in Valinor during the War of Wrath.

quote:
Same with Feanor... Finrond... Fingolfin... Aragorn... Gandalf... shit even the two kinds who attacked Sauron lead from the front. There are more of examples of the best leading from the front than the opposite. Some examples of this not happening doesn't change that it happened most of the time. Which is exactly why Gothmog was placed IN CHARGE and lead from the front.


Are you aware of what a logical fallacy is? Because you're making heavy use of the Association Fallacy.

"Feanor and all these other ******* I mentioned were the strongest in their armies led from the front. Gothmog also leads from the front, therefore he is the strongest character on his side."

This is fallacious reasoning.

The fact that there are examples of that not happening only further exposes this point for the illogical mess it is.

Shit, the point is explicitly disproved by Morgoth, far and away the most powerful member of his faction, preferring to lead from the rear. It is also disproved by the dragons, which were able to turn the tide of battle in the War of Wrath where the evil maia failed, despite never being indicated to hold leadership positions and only coming out when they needed to (so either way, they didn't lead from the front).

quote:
Why is the narration often quoted of only Gothmog was equal to Sauron in rank. What does this mean? He's actually below Sauron? Explain that to me.


It means that they are equal in rank. You have a point there son?

quote:
Luthien's feats are not better first off


Tell me more about how putting Morgoth and his entire ****ing army to sleep is not better than being ganged up on and killed by Balrogs. Because that's Feanor's only relevant ****ing feat.

quote:
and second.. that was about as PIS as it gets. So she can take somebody out vastly more powerful than Sauron but can't take Sauron out... That is almost the definition of PIS and context.


Cry more about it. Sauron has a feat that you can't argue against, so it's PIS?

Well guess what? Sauron has also warded Numenor from the power of the Valar. Without the One Ring. Sauron's power to contend in some way with the Valar is consistent. Luthien to be fair caught Morgoth off-guard, but it is still a better feat than any of Feanor's.

quote:
Gothmog has defeated superior people plain and simple.


Luthien's feats are better.

quote:
We can say ohh he had help and try and dismiss them but again that falls flat. It was a BATTLE there was fighting going on all around them. Feanor was not alone he had elves with him and others. Gothmog had help. That's what happens when there is a BATTLE. Gothmog killed Feanor plain and simple.


"Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Feanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds; but at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, whom Ecthelion after slew in Gondolin."

So he was vastly outnumbered and surrounded, both by the normal armies of Angband as well as Gothmog and his Balrogs, and Gothmog only struck him down after he was burned and wounded. Wow man. What a badass. It took him a "long" amount of time to kill Feanor even though he was vastly outnumbered and surrounded.

Of course, Gothmog has never beaten anyone by himself. The one time he tried, he died. smile

quote:
He's killed better people and died far far fewer times.


No one cares about your red herrings. As I pointed out, Gothmog's first death happened before Sauron's. He had more time to bring himself back, but couldn't.

quote:
Shit a weaker Balrog battle a maia for days on end and died in the process killing a weaker one. Sauron has gotten killed by flooding...


Sauron was killed on Numenor by God opening a hole in the world to destroy the entire island of Numenor (because when the Valar tried to do so Sauron stopped them). Compare to Gothmog, who was killed by being pushed into a fountain by a wounded and tired elf. smile


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Old Post Dec 16th, 2014 08:25 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
laughing out loud
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Old Post Dec 17th, 2014 03:54 AM
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AncientPower
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Gothmog is no match for Sauron.


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Old Post Dec 20th, 2014 06:39 AM
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