Sheev cemented his status of being more powerful than everyone put together at the cost of being reduced to a lame fanfic character. Even worse is that he got beaten by an even lamer fanfic character.
I'd say this movie is more or less on par with ROTS, it just redistributes the flaws.
ROTS had shit dialogue, weak performances outside of McDiarmid and McGregor, and a general unpolished clumsiness. But the premise was exciting, the plot was tight, and the storyline largely bereft of plot holes.
TROS has reasonably sharp dialogue, strong performances all the way around (McDiarmid is again the highlight), and drips with Abrams' corporate polish. On the other hand, there are glaring plot holes, an awkward premise, and some of the storyline is hard to follow because it's so goddamn fast.
No you categorically claimed Im NUTS for having a different opinion to you on what I enjoy in film.
Id say you're nuts for bringing out the nuts comment on me in the first place over entertainment products.
Yeahh.... A little different when discussing politics as that literally effects all of us as a society. However our different views on what entertainment is good, does not.
Only one scene that worked for you. FYI that's one of the best scenes in the entire saga.
So only the main protagonist and main antagonist of the trilogy. Okay, sure.
There were also some good/great side performances like Christopher Lee and Frank Oz.
And Hayden Christenson wasn't exactly bad in ROTS, you already mentioned the classic Opera scene.
The 2 kids in TPM were also fine tbh. Obviously Natalie Portmans material got a lot worse in Episodes 2 & 3 though.
Yes you are correct, the Premise and World building were great. Fantastic in fact. Expanded on even greater through TCW series, which was also all Lucas vision.
There's really are no other movies like the Prequels. Which in itself should make it pretty easy for you to understand why other non-nutty people would love those films.
No was fantastic.
ROTS was basically a modern day Macbeth, but given to us in the form of an space fantasy with wizards. Absolutely Epic.
But It should at least make it easier for you to appreciate all the gold nuggets those films left us with.
Ah LOTR. How predictably boring a choice.
As well made as they are, they don't touch the OT (imo of course). The simplicity of the OT incorporating a kids fairy tale, the Perfect depiction of The Hero's Journey, the untapped imagination of incorporating westerns with Flash Gordon serials, the deep mythology, honestly LOTR doesn't even come close to be as satisfying on all those levels.
And to think, he did not base his trilogy/saga on any books. It all came from his crazy mind. Every planet, every species, every character, the mythology and the plot.
Insane.
You see I'm not even hard to please when expanding on the Star Wars legacy. Yet all 3 films of the ST could not manage that even for me.
How is that the same thing? Its not even close. He was trying to trigger Luke and use his Father as a tool to turn him to the dark side.
He only wanted Vader dead when the time was right and he didn't need him anymore. Thats not at all like a fool giving away his whole plot, just so the heroes can Not do that.
The best equivalence would be to tell the Rebellion they are flying into a trap BEFORE they go to Endor. That's how dumb he was with Rey.
Yes he tempted Luke with the same thing, but he wasn't that dumb with Luke as I've pointed out above. Luke knowing his plans at that point made no difference to his plans. So tempting him with that wasn't dumb and was in fact a logical way to get him to turn.
But tempting Rey with that, when she was there to kill him anyway is just dumb AF.
And jeez you've just pointed out another way this was just a repeat of ROTJ, except an exceptionally poor quality version.
I also won't get into why he didn't stop firing the lightning when it was disintegrating him, because I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it was akin to a Mace Windu type situation where he would have been defenceless without his lightning. But I wouldn't put it past the writers of this film to not have thought that through.
Its not hate. Its more frustration. But honestly I wasn't expecting much given the last 2. I'm on record that I was just hoping for an entertaining flick, already accepting the premise of this trilogy has been dumb.
Unfortunately with this one they doubled down on the lazy writing, the stupidness of the plot and the complete and final imitation of the OT.
I only needed some small changes. If just Kylo survived, I would have thought that cool, and might have even Wanted sequels. Given thats something we haven't seen, a Jedi making up for past sins like an Angel or Xena Warrior Princess.
If at the end Rey gathered up a few potential students and started a Jedi school, (that sort of thing was hinted at the end of TLJ), then I also might have been intrigued to see sequels, and at least felt like they've moved forward.
But no, Kylos arc was exactly Vaders, and Reys was exactly Lukes. And the end battle for the Rebellion against the Emperor just happened again, with the Rebellion of course winning again.
It was a complete 360, a pointless end to a pointless trilogy, except with Palpatine forced in there with no explanation, which you yourself agreed was awful. I don't think the story telling from either TFA or TLJ had anything that awful. So yeah I do feel this was the worst of the 3. And you haven't convinced me that any of my criticisms of this films plot or its use of Palpatine are not 100% legitimate criticisms.
Not that you were ever an avatar of rationality (I fondly remember 2013 where you stupidly thought the Zabraks challenged Sheev lmfao), but it seems like years of slugging it out with quan have reduced you even further.
You seem incapable of following the conversation, so I'll try a different combination of words: I think your opinion sucks. That's why I said you're nuts for having it. I also recognize that you're entitled to your opinion and at no point said or implied that you can't have your shitty opinion. But that doesn't change the fact that I think it sucks. Like, I'm not obligated to think your opinion doesn't suck simply because I recognize you're entitled to have one that differs from mine.
There is no contradiction here. Do you understand me?
That's... fine?
Err... no. A shit opinion is a shit opinion. It doesn't matter that the stakes are obviously more meaningful as pertains national politics than whether or not you like a movie. I'm not obligated to pretend your opinion is worthy of respect when I think it's a bad opinion simply because it's about a movie and not the President.
Yes, agreed.
Given that there's much, much, much more to the saga than Obi-Wan and Palpatine, yeah that's inadequate.
Both were fine.
One scene in one movie that rides on McDiarmid, not Hayden.
Jake Lloyd did nothing for me in TPM and Portman, while a fine actress, gave an utterly wooden performance in this trilogy.
Yup, but I've already preempted this: the fact that Lucas's films gave rise to superior stories doesn't retroactively make the films themselves better.
That's like you coming home from school with an A+ on your term paper and me congratulating your father instead of you. It wasn't his paper, he doesn't get credit.
Err... even if I conceded this, "unique" doesn't mean good.
If you're referring to Stover's vastly superior novelization, sure. If you're referring to the premise of ROTS in general, yeah, fine. But if you're talking about the movie itself, no lmfao.
I do appreciate those nuggets. But they're few and far between.
Much like how, though I enjoy corn, I'm not about extol the virtues of a turd that happens to be flecked with corn.
Yes, how boring am I for appreciating films with consistently stratospheric acting performances, dialogue, pacing, cinematography, judicious use of special effects all the way around instead of the prequels. You got me.
Yep, and maybe if we were comparing the OT to LOTR, I'd be more sympathetic to your analysis. But you said1-6, which also means whatever magnificence exists in the OT is tarnished by the mediocrity of the prequels.
Indeed, many of his creative decisions were insane and could've used stronger partners pushing back on him. The best of the saga, ANH and ESB, are the best precisely because there were other strong creative personalities filtering George's ideas and keeping him in check.
Yes, the sequels are shit movies.
Your ability to flagrantly misinterpret a situation on screen is as keen as it was 6 years ago when you watched Sidious duel Maul and Savage and walked away thinking WOW WHAT A CHALLENGE THEY REALLY MADE SHEEV WORK FOR IT LOLZ.
Twice in ROTJ Luke was aggressively attacking Vader and both times he was stopped by Sheev running his mouth. It snapped Luke out of his rage twice. That's counterproductive to Sheev's goal, which is to lure Luke to the dark side.
In other words, Sheev should've shut the hell up after he incited Luke into blind rage. But he didn't. He kept talking, undermining his own effort.
That's virtually no different than what happens in TROS. The difference between us is I'm honest and smart enough to recognize that fact, whereas you...
The only thing you pointed out is that you consistently duck the actual point, which is:
With Luke and Rey both, Sheev effectively shot himself in the foot by running his mouth. If he'd just shut up, both on Endor and Exegol, the chances would've been higher that his target (Luke and Rey) would've done what he wanted them to.
No, it was just dumb movie logic where the villain does something he shouldn't that gets himself killed. There's no reason he couldn't have tried to Force yeet her or throw something at her with TK, but he didn't because this movie is sadly nothing more than a fun, dumb popcorn flick and not a 2 hour treatise on character rationality.
Yep, plenty of ways for this movie to have been made and ended better. Not disputing that.
And again, failing to convince you that some of your criticisms suck isn't exactly an indictment.
Not to beat a dead horse, your defining moment to me was 6 years ago when, despite all the visual evidence to the contrary and piles of Word of God statements from Filoni and others, you sincerely thought Maul and Savage legitimately challenged Sidious lmfao.
George Lucas and God Himself could sit your myopic ass down and tell you a cold hard fact in less than 10 words and you'd sputter and froth your way through a rabid denial.
Because you, my friend, are nuts. And thus we end where we started.
This is probably the longest running debate this subforum has seen in like 5 years.
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"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
If Dave was still here there'd be a new one every day. I miss that c*nt.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
It's too bad you're not in San Francisco. We could jump off the Golden Gate Bridge together
__________________
"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
Sad to hear but not unexpected. He was basically Ben Shapiro before Ben Shapiro was a thing.
__________________
"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
The surprising part is that you have him on FB. Does he still own that Amazon warehouse?
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Actually, I thought "I've seen Valkorion doing something like that in TOR but, unlike Palpatine, he actually killed people." And that was that. I didn't even think of it as particularly impressive. Because in the context of the former Expanded Universe, it just wasn't.
When I realized, they were bringing Sidious back, I honestly hoped for far more than what we've got. I wanted a rejuvinated Emperor, maybe a clone, with some diabolical plan and as much screentime as possible for Ian McDiarmid. Instead, I didn't even recognize Ian McDiarmid at first, because of all the lightning effects they utilized whenever showing his face.
But I didn't get that dark side genius lurking at the edge of the Galaxy, equipped with some sinister plan to gain back control about the Galaxy. Instead it seemed like somebody revisited some of the classical works of the Star Wars EU and mined them for some ideas. The idea of bringing him back was taken from the Dark Empire comics, much like the idea, that Rey should kill him for his spirit to live on in her and control her. The entire setting of the Sith World (giant structures, dark alchemy) was taken from the temples on Yavin 4 in the height of Exar Kun's power in the TotJ comics. Putting him on some Sith apparatus to keep him alive was a copy of King Ommin (The Freedon Nadd Uprising) and the spectacular lightning, as said, was copied and pasted from The Old Republic.
The entire final fight was a Hollywood version of Jerec vs Kyle Katarn in Dark Forces: Jedi Knight. Two powerful opponents, both, apparently, spiritually backed by all their forebearerers in the respective orders and boosted otherwise (Sidous draining), being done with their fight in a single attack. Inbetween, we were served with a nod to KotoR 2 (force drain) and a nod to Cade Skywalker (with both the instinctive use of force lightning and the ability to heal others).
So essentially: This was fanservice throughout the entire movie, attempting to appeal to fans of the other movies, the video games, the comics, the Expanded Universe and the TV shows. They wanted to please everybody and wasted the character of Palpatine in the process, which he didn't deserve.
I mean, seriously: That cunning, evil, diabolical genius just sits on his half-dead ass for 40 years with a fleet of planet busting ships under his control and does nothing but wait for his granddaughter to show up to possess he, while the First Order, led by some creature he had created, failed to do anything remotely ressembling competence. Yup. That seemed reasonable. Not to mention his severe lack of rhetorical finesse ("Order 66" - "First Order" - "Final Order"). They could have done far more with his character - and should have.
Nah.
In RotJ, he had a plan that failed. He wanted to end the Rebellion and convert Skywalker and failed due to his hubris. That's a classical greek plot.
In TROS he just sits on his ass for 40 years and essentially waits for fate to unfold, bringing his granddaughter backt to him, while he just sits there, twiddling his thumbs, with the capabilities of conquering the Galaxy (but not using them) and watching his grasp on the Galaxy via the First Order failing. And then he fails to his hubris again. And that is nonsense, even if you attempt to rationalize it with the effects of the Dark Side on his mind.
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
That's what you took away from the movie? Maybe watch it again?
Palpatine used the First Order to wipe out the republic's forces, while amassing a hidden fleet of planet destroying SDs. His entire plans did not depend on Rey coming to him. Rey was just a way for him to get a new body. Similar to how in ROTJ, Luke was a way of getting a new disciple, but his plans for the rebellion did not hinge on Luke.
You mean how he sat on his very much alive ass as the emperor, while losing his grip on the galaxy. Waited for another Skywalker to corrupt in order to finally show up and do something.
See, you could put that same spin on ROTJ.
The First Order actually succeeded in bringing the galaxy back to it's knees by taking out it's central government by surprise and by force. They only lacked the means to completely subjugate it all, but that's where Palpatine's sith fleet came in, and why he spent those decades creating it.
"The First Order was just the beginning"
"The might of the Final Order will SOON be ready'
Sidious came super close in reclaiming the galaxy, while being forced to hide in the shadows as weakened, half dead corpse. That's impressive.
Palpatine was one of the few things the sequel trilogy got right. He's that same evil genius pulling all the strings.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Rey was definitely ringing some Jedi Outcast bells. Every three levels she unlocked a new Force Power. Almost Force Lightning'd Chewie when she hit F7 by mistake.
Lol... I mean, if panicked story develoment at the 11th hour amidst a derth of originality and compelling villains is getting it "right", then sure.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Last edited by Lord Lucien on Jan 14th, 2020 at 08:11 PM
I liked it, yeah. I'm not going to lie, Palpatine is a big reason why I enjoyed the film.
Don't get me wrong, I have my complaints with the movie and the trilogy as a whole, but I think most of the fanbase nitpick and make up issues that aren't even there.
Yeah... that's just it, they never had an original villain to begin with. Snoke was a Palpatine ripoff, who was in control of an imperial remnant which stemmed from Palpatine's late imperial empire. He was Palpatine in all but appearance and name, trying to redo what Palpatine already did. The direction was the same and everything. Might as well bring back Palpatine to finish what he started, and bring it all to a full circle.
Besides, I was talking about Palpatine, character-wise.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Dec 24th, 2019 02:28 AM
