"In fearful day, in raging night, with strong hearts full, our souls ignite! When all seems lost in the War of Light, look to the stars, for hope burns bright!"
Jean Grey is the Phoenix Force theyre one and the same thats what Endsong established. Dont get confused by Warsongs appearance of the firebird without Jean Grey. The Phoenix that appearred in Warsong was after all just a fragment of the Force that is Jean Grey.
Jean Grey is a flip side to the Force, one of its forms, but very much the same thing.
Emma couldnt contain the Force because the Phoenix is a Force that among other things embodys the passion and emotion of creation. That is why it is such a hard power to rein in. Emma had learned to survive life through being cynical and emotionally detached, thats why she was an unsuitable recipient.
The Cuckoos through emotionally detaching themselves at the end made themselves unsuitable hosts for the Phoenix fragements, therefore preventing it from working through them.
That story was the biggest pile of sh*t out! I am so disappointed. It taught us nothing new with regards to the Phoenix. We already knew that one of its roles was to perpetuate the creation cycle and burn away that which would impede evolution/lifes progression. The point has been stated throughout continuity and as recently as X-men Forever and Morissons New X-men. There was just no need for this mini.
At least Endong cemented back into continuity the original but later retconned concept that Jean Grey and the Force were one and the same thing. Endsong was much better in its execution and at least made a change to the Phoenix mythos.
Hmm...one and the same..that's a bit confusing...she is the top avatar but the PF has it's own consciousness...it doesn't necessarily mean she is the Force entirely. Anyway thought you should know that Burbaker said he wants to go back to making it a separate entity and ignore Endsong/Warsong. Also Korvus guy was a Phoenix Host before Jean Grey ever came to be.
Well Celeste was an exception to the rule...each Cuckoo seemed to represent a different side to Emma. Sophie, Esme, Phoebe, Mindee all different aspects to her personality. Celeste must have been the part of her she lost a very long time ago.
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Last edited by ExodusCloak on Feb 8th, 2007 at 07:33 PM
Given that the Force was manifesting as Jean Grey in the previous multiverse as depicted on panel, Korvus being a host a few hundred years back is irrelevant.
Endsong showed that Jean and the Phoenix Force are one and the same. She is one of its faces. Its prime avatar. Endsong showed that parts of the Force or parts of Jean Grey can seperate from the main and possess other hosts and still be referred to on panel as the Phoenix Force.
I can see that she's one of its faces but she's hardly the entire PF when you have a seperate consciousness talking to her? A seperate mind...
Intruiging...when was the force manifesting as Jean Grey in the previous multiverse?
BTW Celeste was able to control and use the PF to do Phoenix Work...which sort of clearly shows that she's able to act as a host for it.
And looking back at my post when I said I don't think it's Jean Grey I meant that I don't think that Emma is angry with Jean Grey I think she's angry with the Cosmic Phoenix Force itself. The Jean we know and the PF seem to have two seperate consciences.
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Last edited by ExodusCloak on Feb 8th, 2007 at 09:25 PM
This was definitely a disappointing series. Marvel played up the Phoenix game to rake in some cash. It didn't feature Jean Grey at all and neither 'laid the foundation for Jean Grey to come' or 'explained Phoenix anymore'.
Of course shes not the entire Phoenix Force. Shes one of its faces, one of its personalities as it were but still very much one and the same as the Force. Unlike hosts like Rachel and Giraud she is literally a part of the fabric of the Force. When the Force got shattered it was HER pieces she had to find.
X-men adventures depicts the previous multiverse that existed before the current one. It is referred to in the bios of Galactus, Phoenix and LT.
The Force is indestructible mutable energy. It can divide many times over and each part would be a fully functioning Phoenix and each one would still be referred to as the Phoenix Force because thats what they would be. The "Phoenix Force" of Endsong wasnt the Force entire but merely a shard of Jean. As was the Force of Warsong. Being able to manifest a separate consciousness doesnt translate into Jean and Phoenix being two seperate things.
You mean that comic based off TAS where Juggernaut gets pwned by Gladiator? Isn't that non-canon? Do the bios say the force manifested as Jean Grey in the previous multiverse?
Why not...I mean a seperate consciousness that's all knowing etc...could automatically translate to a seperate being. The consciousness is there to guide Jean isn' t it. It's like her cosmic awareness except it's a seperate from her own consciousness...isn't that who the POTWC answers to?
From what I get Jean is the Head Honcho avatar. The Heart of the Entire Phoenix Force i.e. The M'kraan Crystal is the consciousness and this is what guides Jean and the other avatars.
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Last edited by ExodusCloak on Feb 10th, 2007 at 01:11 PM
The issue and events referenced by the bios of the aforementioned entitys feature Jean as the avatar of the Phoenix.
Jean is the human face of the Phoenix Force. As stated multiple times on panel she is literally the Phoenix made flesh. She isnt a separate being empowered by an outside Force. She is an aspect of the Force. That is why when the Force got shattered Jean was looking for HER parts and why she stated they are one and the same. It is also why at the end of Warsong Emma noted that she didnt know who to vent her anger at, was the entity who destroyed her daughters Jean gone mad or was it the Phoenix Force? Different sides of the same thing.
She is both separate and one with the Force. Separate in terms of having her own consciousness but at the same time she is part of the substance that makes up the Force. In the same way that the Source and the Presence whilst performing different roles and acting independently of each other are still one and the same as DC's supreme being. Just other sides to it.
That was the whole point Endsong was trying to establish. Jean and the Force are the same thing. That was the original concept and this is what has been cemented back into continuity through Morrisson and Pak.
The M'kraan crystal isnt the consciousness. The crystal is merely a gateway to the White Hot Room where the Phoenix Consciousness resides. It is from here that all manifestations of the Phoenix Force in reality derive from. A human body has limitations that an energy form does not. In the human form of Jean the Force is guided by the greater Consciounsess of which she is a literal manifestation of.
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I just want to address Emma and other non-jean people being hosts of the Phoenix. There is a very big difference between host and avatar. Emma could be a host for the Phoenix, the thing in Endsong was that Emma could not control the power, she was a shell, she could host the Phoenix, but she would have been taken over. There would be no Emma, she would have been possessed not able to act under her own will, the same goes for the girls, Celeste was going do Phoenix work whether she wanted to or not, the process became easier when she excepted it.
Gender: Unspecified Location: IN YOUR MIND...MUWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Emma and many others are not built to contain that much power without assistance, the Phoenix consciouness has cosmic awareness that even Jean says she has trouble with from time to time, but that's only when she tries to do things outside of what the Phoenix has come to do, unlike others she can exist with the Force and has some sway over it's actions.
I've already acknowledged her as it's Prime Avatar...but from what I interpreted from your previous post...apparently those bios suggest that the Phoenix Manifested as Jean Grey in the previous multiverse. Are you referring to the New LT bio? The old Galactus and Phoenix 2005 one?
There not entirely the same thing...and that's what I'm getting at. The force existed before Jean Grey....The Force is bigger then her and that is why the consciousness was still intact when Jean was shattered into a billion pieces. Jean just seems to be the prime vessel that is most compatible with it due to her Omega Potential and humanity. I agree that she is the human face of the Phoenix Force.
She's part of a bigger picture.
Endsong and Morrisons run were so convoluted it's neither her nor there. You have Jean say "we are the same." And that automatically makes her the entire force? I mean from the way it was acting towards Cyclops one could interpret that statement by saying "They're one in the same because the PF assimilated Jeans Emotions". The entire force and her are not the same thing...because life and death still exists even though the Jean part was shattered into a billion pieces. The consciousness was uneffected.
If you look at that Bio then you'll see that it says the M'Kraan crystal has it's own will and is sentient on some sort of level. If the consciousness resides within it then surely they are one in the same? It also says the city of the Phoenix Corps reside within it.
She couldn't host it because she lacked the emotional level needed to qualm the Phoenix's urge for destruction. In Warsong they went to all the trouble to make a point about Celeste being able to control it. BTW Don't forget that Jean has also being consumed/possessed by the Force. It's not something exclusive to non-Jean people.
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Last edited by ExodusCloak on Feb 12th, 2007 at 09:10 PM
BTW GS I hope I'm not coming across as offensive or anything...but the concept of Jean Being the Phoenix Force itself when there's a seperate conscious that channels itself through ALL it's avatars...is just so confusing. For me...I can't see the logic...and for some reason I can't see the link between the scans and that explanation.
Jean is the Phoenix Force made flesh...yet there is still a separate conscious that guides her and it's hosts.
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Last edited by ExodusCloak on Feb 12th, 2007 at 09:30 PM
What you dont seem to be comprehending is that there is no difference between Jean and the Phoenix Force. She is an aspect of it. Im not saying she is the whole of the Force, if you read my posts again you'll see i said she is one of its faces. So why you've spouted off endlessly about a point that wasnt being argued i dont know. Youve wasted your time.
Jean isnt just a mutant who the Phoenix decided to possess one day. She is literally a manifestation of the Force. As stated on panel she is the Force made flesh. That is why she refers to the Forces missing parts as her parts, because her and the Force are one and the same. She is not the same as Korvus, or Rachel or Giraud. She is literally the Force in human form which is why she is the White Phoenix of Crown, the very heart of the Phoenix. How the Force prefers to manifest on the physical plane.
The crystal does have a consciouness of its own but the crystal isnt the same as the White Hot Room. The crystal is merely an access point for the White Hot Room which is the dimension of the Phoenix Consciousness. Youre speculating and trying to present that as fact. Its not.
The entire Force cannot be summed up within the Jean Grey Form because the Force is life. So of course Jean Grey isnt the totality of the Force otherwise there would be no life anywhere else because Jean would be its sum. I was arguing that she is a literal manifestation of it, a true avatar as opposed to just a host. Thats what i mean by they are one and the same. I have consistently said shes one of its faces and yet you have somehow taken that as me saying Jean is the sum of the Phoenix Force. You misinterpreted.
I never said she was like Rachel, Giraud or Korvus...but anyway...so she's suppose to be like Jesus?
The White Hot Room resides within the M'Kraan Crystal as stated in the bio. The crystal itself is it's own world...it doesn't say anything about the White Hot Room being a separate dimension to the Universe within the Crystal.
I understand the difference between being THE Avatar and just a mere host. I've always considered her as THE avatar but in your first post....you made it out to be that Jean was the PF in absolute. If I misinterpreted then my apologies.
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Last edited by ExodusCloak on Feb 12th, 2007 at 09:48 PM
No. I said they were one and the same, that there is no difference between them. I said Jean was one of the Forces faces. I never once said Jean was the totality of the Force because she couldnt be and yet be surrounded by life on panel.
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