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Israel and Lebanon
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Soleran
Fast As Time

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
So governments should just ignore the law too obviously. How does breaking the Fourth Geneva Convention help to fight terrorists...


How does following the 4th rule keep the terrorists from continuing their violence?

quote:
So uberlogically they attack Lebanese civilian infrastructure.


Tell me whats the purpose of ports, airports, bridges/roads and powerplants?

Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 02:39 PM
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manjaro
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i know this is gonna sound weird, but i always take the side of the jews, seeing as how they dont have suicide bombers and all, but damn, this looks like they had something in the works,and the kidnappings just provided them with the perfect opportunity to invade. next thing you know, Iran will be goaded into aiding the arabs, and then thegood ol predictable US will jump in and say its time for a regime change in both syria and Iran and send more of our pretty stretched thin troops over there.----then we would really get the oil..thats just simply brilliant smart sure a few thousand lives will be sacrificed, but when we pull up at the pump and gas is $1.10, like it was back in 98-99. then it will make all our pain go away--ahhhh
(btw sorry if somebody posted somethng similar, i didnt bother to read all 200 pagesbig grin)


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Last edited by manjaro on Jul 16th, 2006 at 04:53 PM

Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 04:45 PM
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Darth Jello
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
So governments should just ignore the law too obviously. How does breaking the Fourth Geneva Convention help to fight terrorists...
So uberlogically they attack Lebanese civilian infrastructure.


When a country launches attacks on your country on a daily basis for several years, that's a pretty good excuse to go to war.


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Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 05:56 PM
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Ordo
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Soleran
Tell me whats the purpose of ports, airports, bridges/roads and powerplants?


Everyone in the country is not a fricking terrorist. Everyone uses those structures. Would plowing up your local gas station help stike agaisnt the ELF? NO. The terrorists are in the south. They're bombing the capitol. Its TOTALLY disproportionate.

EVERYONE uses those things. Thats by defenition infrasturcture.


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Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 06:34 PM
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Soleran
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alliance
Everyone in the country is not a fricking terrorist. Everyone uses those structures. Would plowing up your local gas station help stike agaisnt the ELF? NO. The terrorists are in the south. They're bombing the capitol. Its TOTALLY disproportionate.

EVERYONE uses those things. Thats by defenition infrasturcture.


Wow I feel like I was watching the Syrian Ambassador on T.V. again. You never even answered my question, you just went on a tirade of ranting about disproportionate action again.

Yes I get it, you think its disproportionate action, moving forward. Perhaps you could just answer the question?

Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 06:42 PM
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Ordo
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I didn't kno wyou were asking a question. I'm saying that Isreals destruction of public infrastructure can be construed as terrorism. It also hurts more non-terrorists than the terrorists itself, which makes people angry, and creates more terrorism.

And I have no more respect for Syria, than I do for Lebanon or Isreal.


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Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 07:08 PM
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docb77
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Jello
glenn beck? the guy who routinely outcoulters coulter?



Sorry I must of missed that monologue. What did he say that was so offensive? And if he's that far to the right how did he get offered a show on a CNN affiliate?

Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 07:16 PM
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xmarksthespot
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Jello
When a country launches attacks on your country on a daily basis for several years, that's a pretty good excuse to go to war.
You see no distinction between a country and a militant group acting within its borders with foreign backers? Interesting.


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Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 07:55 PM
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NinthCorona
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You see no distinction between a country and a militant group acting within its borders with foreign backers? Interesting.
A military group with seats in that countries government, and with a larger military then the supposedly 'seperate' government.


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Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 08:02 PM
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docb77
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You see no distinction between a country and a militant group acting within its borders with foreign backers? Interesting.


The difference I see when that country is ignoring the problem within their borders is negligible.

To take it out of the mideast, if the illegal aliens in the US were to repeatedly attack Canada, and the US did nothing to try to stop them, then Canada would be completely justified in taking matters into their own hands.

It would never happen of course. The illegal aliens here have no reason to attack Canada, and if they did the US would take care of the problems within its own borders.

Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 08:04 PM
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Mindship
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Hezbollah couldn't care less about the people of Lebanon (that's irony for ya, considering the people of Lebanon voted them in). Otherwise, they wouldn't be using Lebanese civilian territory as their military base. But then, that Is how terrorists fight.

On the other hand, if Israel felt the same way about the Lebanese people as the Lebanese "government" does, they wouldn't need Hezbollah as a reason to do what they're doing; certainly they would Not be trying to minimize collateral damage.

There's no comparison.

Attachment: israel-palestinian_babywar.gif
This has been downloaded 45 time(s).


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Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 08:13 PM
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xmarksthespot
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If Israel cared so much for the Lebanese civilians they'd comply with international law.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by §cimitar
A military group with seats in that countries government, and with a larger military then the supposedly 'seperate' government.
I don't get what you're trying to say? The government of Lebanon is actually Hezbollah?
quote: (post)
Originally posted by docb77
The difference I see when that country is ignoring the problem within their borders is negligible.

To take it out of the mideast, if the illegal aliens in the US were to repeatedly attack Canada, and the US did nothing to try to stop them, then Canada would be completely justified in taking matters into their own hands.

It would never happen of course. The illegal aliens here have no reason to attack Canada, and if they did the US would take care of the problems within its own borders.
The Lebanese government does not have the resources of the U.S. government. The U.S. has previously acknowledged the Lebanese government does not have the capability of controlling Hezbollah territory.


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Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 08:23 PM
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SupezM'
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The militant group Hezbollah has more power and a stronger "military" then the actual government of Lebanon. They are strongly supported by the Lebanese people which is another reason the Lebanese government cant remove them from office, it would split their country.

So I say if the Lebanese want to support this terrorist militant group then they are just as responsible. These terrorists continue to attack Israel then flee and hide behind civilians who support them, Israel is fed up with it. They are warning civilians to leave the area in case things really heat up, Israel is just bombing what they believe to be strategic Hezbollah targets. They have yet to start any serious bombardment.

Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 08:54 PM
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MyOwnMuse
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There was a relevent article published over the weekend in the NY Times and several other papers by Thomas Friedman regarding the political situation in the Middle East, which may help to further clear up the confusion regarding Hezbollah and the Lebanese government:

quote:

The Kidnapping of Democracy
Thomas Friedman/New York Times, July 14, 2006

When you watch the violence unfolding in the Middle East today it is easy to feel that you’ve been to this movie before and that you know how it ends — badly. But we actually have not seen this movie before. Something new is unfolding, and we’d better understand it.

What we are seeing in Iraq, the Palestinian territories and Lebanon is an effort by Islamist parties to use elections to pursue their long-term aim of Islamizing the Arab-Muslim world. This is not a conflict about Palestinian or Lebanese prisoners in Israel. This is a power struggle within Lebanon, Palestine and Iraq over who will call the shots in their newly elected “democratic’’ governments and whether they will be real democracies.

The tiny militant wing of Hamas today is pulling all the strings of Palestinian politics, the Iranian-backed Hezbollah Shiite Islamic party is doing the same in Lebanon, even though it is a small minority in the cabinet, and so, too, are the Iranian-backed Shiite parties and militias in Iraq. They are not only showing who is boss inside each new democracy, but they are also competing with one another for regional influence.

As a result, the post-9/11 democracy experiment in the Arab-Muslim world is being hijacked. Yes, basically free and fair elections were held in Lebanon, the Palestinian territories and Iraq. Yes, millions turned out to vote because the people of the Arab-Muslim world really do want to shape their own futures.

But the roots of democracy are so shallow in these places and the moderate majorities so weak and intimidated that we are getting the worst of all worlds. We are getting Islamist parties who are elected to power, but who insist on maintaining their own private militias and refuse to assume all the responsibilities of a sovereign government. They refuse to let their governments have control over all weapons. They refuse to be accountable to international law (the Lebanese-Israeli border was ratified by the U.N.), and they refuse to submit to the principle that one party in the cabinet cannot drag a whole country into war.

“Iraq, Lebanon and the Palestinians all held democratic elections,’’ said the Israeli political theorist Yaron Ezrahi, “and the Western expectation was that these elections would produce legitimate governments that had the power to control violence and would assume the burden of responsibility of governing. ... But what happened in all three places is that we [produced] governments which are sovereign only on paper, but not over a territory.’’

Then why do parties like Hamas and Hezbollah get elected? Often because they effectively run against the corruption of the old secular state-controlled parties, noted Mr. Ezrahi. But once these Islamists are in office they revert to serving their own factional interests, not those of the broad community.

Boutros Harb, a Christian Lebanese parliamentarian, said: “We must decide who has the right to make decisions on war and peace in Lebanon. Is that right reserved for the Lebanese people and its legal institutions, or is the choice in the hands of a small minority of Lebanese people?”

Ditto in the fledgling democracies of Palestine and Iraq. When cabinet ministers can maintain their own militias and act outside of state authority, said Mr. Ezrahi, you’re left with a “meaningless exercise’’ in democracy/state building.

Why don’t the silent majorities punish these elected Islamist parties for working against the real interests of their people? Because those who speak against Hamas or Hezbollah are either delegitimized as “American lackeys’’ or just murdered, like Rafiq Hariri, the former Lebanese prime minister.

The world needs to understand what is going on here: the little flowers of democracy that were planted in Lebanon, Iraq and the Palestinian territories are being crushed by the boots of Syrian-backed Islamist militias who are desperate to keep real democracy from taking hold in this region and Iranian-backed Islamist militias desperate to keep modernism from taking hold.

It may be the skeptics are right: maybe democracy, while it is the most powerful form of legitimate government, simply can’t be implemented everywhere. It certainly is never going to work in the Arab-Muslim world if the U.S. and Britain are alone in pushing it in Iraq, if Europe dithers on the fence, if the moderate Arabs cannot come together and make a fist, and if Islamist parties are allowed to sit in governments and be treated with respect — while maintaining private armies.

The whole democracy experiment in the Arab-Muslim world is at stake here, and right now it’s going up in smoke.


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Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 09:13 PM
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xmarksthespot
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SupezM'
The militant group Hezbollah has more power and a stronger "military" then the actual government of Lebanon. They are strongly supported by the Lebanese people which is another reason the Lebanese government cant remove them from office, it would split their country.

So I say if the Lebanese want to support this terrorist militant group then they are just as responsible. These terrorists continue to attack Israel then flee and hide behind civilians who support them, Israel is fed up with it. They are warning civilians to leave the area in case things really heat up, Israel is just bombing what they believe to be strategic Hezbollah targets. They have yet to start any serious bombardment.
If by strongly supported you mean they hold a huge -41 majority in the government... no expression

Israel is totally justified in killing civilians now... I mean... it's the Lebanese civilians' own fault... no expression


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Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 09:19 PM
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Soleran
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
If by strongly supported you mean they hold a huge -41 majority in the government... no expression

Israel is totally justified in killing civilians now... I mean... it's the Lebanese civilians' own fault... no expression


Here's the thing X, stop minimalizing the fact that Hezbollah are a part of the govt. You know why, because they are. In fact there was UN sanctions 1559 last year that said to Lebanon step it up and take care of Hezbollah. Guess what, Israel is tired of getting hit with missiles and attacked so it looks like they are going to clean it up.

Victimized Lebanese folks again....................yup I guess its true. Israel is really laying into those civilians time and again!

If anyone has seen the damage Israel has inflicted its been minimal to Civilian while Maximizing it's attacks on the Hezbollah who are HIDING among the civilians. So you have military targets sitting next to civilian targets. The only group here that is deliberatly attacking civilians it's the Hezbollah.

Last edited by Soleran on Jul 16th, 2006 at 09:34 PM

Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 09:32 PM
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xmarksthespot
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Firstly UNSC Resolution 1559 did not impose any sanctions on Lebanon. Secondly while the resolution does call for the disbanding and disarmament of Lebanese militia its predominant focus was on Syrian influence in Lebanon and the removal of foreign forces, the resolution was hastily drafted and slimly passed. Thirdly parties involved have been attempting to comply. Fourthly and finally if you want to talk about UNSC Resolution defiance, Israel is in defiance of 69 separate UNSC resolutions, having been protected from another 41 by U.S. veto, which they probably would have defied anyway if they had passed.


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Last edited by xmarksthespot on Jul 16th, 2006 at 09:58 PM

Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 09:54 PM
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manjaro
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i say let the jews have at it manbig grin what the hey. i know that completely sounds like im justifying the tension but they've been on the receieving end for quite some time now..even tho the downside is all the arab nations and the rogue miltia groups are gonna look like geniouses now. cuz in the midst of calling for the eradication of isreal, these terrorists f ****s always claim that the zionists are perpetrating unspeakable evil throught the world. even here in America those guys who go to prison and convert to Islam always come back out with a hatred for jews. thetn you have dumb f ****s like farrakan eggin them on, so the fundamentalists in the arab world are gonna be like "see we told you about those dirty jews." arrgghhh mad *shakes fist angrily * and then as a result the tension will never cease


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Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 10:33 PM
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Quiero Mota

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Firstly UNSC Resolution 1559 did not impose any sanctions on Lebanon. Secondly while the resolution does call for the disbanding and disarmament of Lebanese militia its predominant focus was on Syrian influence in Lebanon and the removal of foreign forces, the resolution was hastily drafted and slimly passed. Thirdly parties involved have been attempting to comply. Fourthly and finally if you want to talk about UNSC Resolution defiance, Israel is in defiance of 69 separate UNSC resolutions, having been protected from another 41 by U.S. veto, which they probably would have defied anyway if they had passed.


I doubt any UNSC niceties will prevent this 'conflict' from happening.


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Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 11:02 PM
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Ordo
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That becuase the US vetoes every resolution against Isreal.


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Old Post Jul 16th, 2006 11:15 PM
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